Annihilation | Watchmen Discussion

[Spren]

(06-26-2012 09:08 AM)Izzo Wrote:  In addition to the War Hero at 113 Power, there's also Battlemaster at 103 power and Champion at 97 power.

In fact at first glance it seems ANY of these will be better than the clicky relic for sustained dps, and even the low end ones unfortunately are likely better than the matrix cube or the proc ones (which are unchanged, yes), and honestly it doesnt even really seem close...

Are there valor requirements on the PvP relics, does anyone know? My valor level is in the single digits and I have no intentions of changing that any time soon, but is there any way to still obtain any of these without having to do like weeks and weeks of PvP?

You don't need a valor rank.

EDIT:

The relics cost about 1500 ranked warzone coms and 200 regular coms, and don't require the previous tier like other war hero pieces. Very easy to obtain.

[blackfrost]

I always thought the matrix cube for long fights was best but with this new clickey relic would that put it better then the cube? Also I'm still using the 30% chance on hit internal campaign relic.

[pechonalidad]

Rough math I'm aware these formulas aren't 100% precise.
Warhero
113*.23=25.99 bonus dmg
vs
Matrix
66 *.2 = 13.2 66/159= .41 Crit from str
27 crit rating/ 150 crit rating total= 1.09 crit + .41 from str
1.50 crit rating
and 13.2 increased dmg

So from here, how do I figure out which gives me more dps overall? 1.5% crit and 13.2 dmg or 26 bonus dmg.
Also double warhero would allow you to use more of the lvl 61 mods with crit on them instead of having to sub them out for deft mods with power etc.
Currently I am only sure that they new Warheo relic is better than the internal/kinetic trinkets as some post ages ago showed those to be 22-23 dps, if my memory is correct?

P.S. 147 is our targeted crit rating equaling 5.96%, do we have a goal of total % crit from str such that we would want to stack 63 str 13 power mods over the
53 str 41 power mods which are slightly more bonus dmg.

[Izzo]

While I don't have any concrete conclusion on the relics it seems that the war hero is far superior, but I did have a few comments.

In your calculations you have 66 str coming from the matrix cube, but it's really 66*1.05 due to the inquisitor buff, and all bonus damage is multiplied by 1.05 by the warrior buff.

So recalculating that, we have:
War Hero: 113*.23*1.05 = 27.2895 bonus damage

Matrix: 66*1.05*.2*1.05 = 14.553 bonus damage
(also I'm not sure where your number for crit come from, i have no clue what the actual formula is but since it does in both cases suffer from DR, so dividing by a fixed number is a very rough estimate at best)


Also important note: 147 is just where my crit happens to sit, i have no way of knowing from math if thats optimal, just from beating on a test dummy, switching mods, and trying again, but there inherent randomness in that so that number could definitely be off, and is an educated guess at very best, so if you were getting that number from my post earlier, take it with a grain of salt.

At current levels of gear, strength (or other primary stat) is approximately 10% better than power for most classes, and even slightly worse for marauders with no talented increase to strength. So with that fact a 26 mod with power is always better than its 26A equivalent, since you gain 29 power and lost only 15 strength. At a point of perfect gear optimization, crit should be equally valuable as power, so the same applies with the crit mods as well. The 26 version is always better than the 26A.

[blackfrost]

(06-27-2012 03:16 PM)Izzo Wrote:  At current levels of gear, strength (or other primary stat) is approximately 10% better than power for most classes, and even slightly worse for marauders with no talented increase to strength. So with that fact a 26 mod with power is always better than its 26A equivalent, since you gain 29 power and lost only 15 strength. At a point of perfect gear optimization, crit should be equally valuable as power, so the same applies with the crit mods as well. The 26 version is always better than the 26A.

Would this hold the same for Augments? That the +18 strength>+18 power? I ask due to the fact that some people are getting higher numbers on the test dummies with all power Augments. Before i drop 1 mil I just wanted to get others thoughts on this .

[arh2o]

I wanted to go back to crit rating for a second. I feel like a 150 rating is very low - mine is currently at 250 and i'm thinking of moving it to 300. I had read that for optimal scaling, your crit rating should be 1/2 or 1/3 of your power. So if my power is at 900 right now, my crit rating should be 300. With a 150 crit rating, my unbuffed critical chance is just too low imo. What are your thoughts or parser tests? Thanks!

[Izzo]

(06-27-2012 10:08 PM)blackfrost Wrote:  Would this hold the same for Augments? That the +18 strength>+18 power? I ask due to the fact that some people are getting higher numbers on the test dummies with all power Augments. Before i drop 1 mil I just wanted to get others thoughts on this .

Well it's 10% better for most classes, and worse for marauders, so all i was saying was that it is at BEST 10% better, and even in that scenario the 26A mods are strictly worse, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that strength is actually strictly worse than power, I just have never seen conclusive numbers to prove it either way. In fact it is probably awfully close. I was simply using 10% as an upper bound to illustrate that point.

(06-28-2012 01:59 AM)arh2o Wrote:  I wanted to go back to crit rating for a second. I feel like a 150 rating is very low - mine is currently at 250 and i'm thinking of moving it to 300. I had read that for optimal scaling, your crit rating should be 1/2 or 1/3 of your power. So if my power is at 900 right now, my crit rating should be 300. With a 150 crit rating, my unbuffed critical chance is just too low imo. What are your thoughts or parser tests? Thanks!

There were some numbers in the Watchman/Combat simulator thread that got similar results to this as well (~150 crit rating), but I agree it could be a bit low, but 300 to me seems super high. Also I don't think in current gear levels you can achieve both 900 power and 300 crit without augmenting for one of the two. Lacking only a stim, I have 150 crit rating and 828 power, with all 26 mods (no 26A), which is a total of 978 power+crit. So 300 crit leaves you at 678 power, unless you get 252 power out of your augments too.

But even then, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to look at crit and power in terms of wanting 1/3 as much power as crit right? Since power has no DR, and crit does, theoretically (holding surge constant) power should start out less valuable than crit, until you hit a point where power becomes slightly better. From that point on, even if you added like 10000 power, the crit rating you wanted should stay the same I think. Adding power does not make power any less valuable since it scales linearly, and i don't believe it should somehow make crit more valuable, even considering it makes your crits hit harder, it's still a constant scale factor across all of your attacks. Does this make any sense, or am i thinking about this completely wrong?

Also, the other thing we can conclude from this is that without a doubt there does exist a value of strength after which power becomes the superior stat, but what that value is remains a mystery (to me at least), although I do suspect we are rapidly approaching it in current gear if we have not gotten there already.




EDIT: I totally forgot about the new PvP relics, so you can add 226 to the overall power+crit budget i mentioned above, which makes 900 power and 300 crit reachable without augments, but 300 crit still feels high, and I don't ever PvP so sadly I will never get that +226 power

[Qed]

Regarding the power vs crit returns. Adding a small amount of power will always increase your damage by the same amount. Adding a small amount of crit will always increase your damage by the same percent.

It's a subtle difference, but imagine some extremes of this scale, and a simplified model.

Imagine that I have 100 power and 100 crit. I attack for 100 damage and crit at 1.5x, 20% of the time. Total dps: 110.
If I add 50 power, I now attack for 150 damage and crit at 1.5x 20% of the time. Total DPS: 165.
If I add 50 crit, I now attack for 100 damage and crit at 1.5x, 30% of the time. Total DPS: 115.

(At these stats, I should trade crit for power)

Now imagine that I have 2000 power and 100 crit. I attack for 2000 damage and crit at 1.5x 20% of the time. Total dps 2200.
If I add 50 power, I now attack for 2050 damage and crit at 1.5x 20% of the time. Total DPS: 2255.
If I add 50 crit, I now attack for 2000 damage and crit at 1.5x 30% of the time. Total DPS: 2300.

(At these stats, I should trade power for crit)

So, as I add more power, crit becomes more valuable, even if I am only adding the same percentage to my crit chance.

[Izzo]

Ah yeah that is true, but an important distinction there is that adding a small amount of crit chance not crit rating will always increase your damage by the same percent, so once you include DR, crit still becomes an increasingly weak stat in a 1:1 comparison with power since you need more crit rating which means sacrificing more power in order to achieve that same percent increase in your damage later on, meaning that if crit rating = 1/2 * power rating is optimal at one level of gear, this should not be true in a higher level of gear, right?

[Qed]

That's true.

In some ways, this is why gearing in SWTOR is interesting: There is not a single best stat for all situations, nor is there even a simple formula for the optimal balance of stats. We have some useful rules of thumb: Cap Acc, ignore Alac, rest into Surge. Dump as much Crit as you can for Power. For people who want to further min-max, we have spreadsheets and sims.

(I'm currently sitting at something like 1150 power, 150 crit raid buffed, and have fairly similar marginal returns to crit and power in simulation)