Immortal | Defense Discussion

[Gauss]

Unfortunately, we went gear farming for some new raid members and I had to go in as a DPS while specced 31 Immortal (which is not much fun). However, we had some hiccups and the main tank did couple times and I had to step in, which went amazingly well. Even though we have two extreme dps (arsenal mercs with full Rakata and three BiS pieces each) I could get and most importantly hold aggro steadily. AoE threat is seriously bad. As long as a second AoE tank (in our case Assassin) is available that's no biggie. Even though, I recently changed mains and my Jugg is not perfectly equipped I managed to take aggro from the Assassin tank without taunts. In conclusion, when doing ops for which two tanks are required (currently just Explosive Conflict, but BW mentioned during the guild summit that they originally wanted to make all ops require a two tank setup) I would go with a 31 Immortal jugg and another tank AC.

[Coriolis]

(04-17-2012 11:30 AM)Teurion Wrote:  

(04-17-2012 06:25 AM)Coriolis Wrote:  You're loosing 4% shield chance and 4% internal/elemental damage mitigation, to gain 4% flat mitigation. Also, using enraged defense in the new op. is a bad idea since half the fights require tank switching, and if you use it you will most likely loose aggro and have it go back to the other tank (which can be lethal). Your threat is also most likely a bit inferior because of the lack of crushing blow and having less rage (lack of 25 pnt immortal talent), although if you get impale and don't use enraged defense much, that's a minor issue.

*shrug* in reality there isn't much difference between the two tank specs, neither before patch, nor now. Hybrid is still better for the off-tank who wants to dps occasionally, and immortal is still a bit better for doing instance runs (where stuns matter), and (in the new patch) threat.

As for relic, get the relic with absorb proc (the only other choice for a passive relic is the shard and this one is a bit better) and a +def activated trinket. Or just go with matrix shard + passive relic if you aren't good about using activated trinkets.

4% flat mitigation is superior to just 4% elemental damage and a 4% chance as i discussed, 4% covers all damage, including elemental, and 4% shield chance as I said above isn't a huge deal, as it was before patch, because you can stack shield rating. The threat for ops so far, I have not had aggro issues, I am doing EC this Fri, I am aware of the tank swap, and that is where you would have to wait for the switch to activate focused defense. Losing hilt strike is not as a big deal as ever because of the 1 min cd, so i don't see that as a huge threat loss, guardian slash, I have not tested for the aggro, but right now i don't have issues, I will have to test it on the new content. This build has been effective against all HM so far and lost island to this point, so EC is the only case where i will have to examine the aggro/threat, but don't see where it would be if my dps is not giving me threat issues as it stands.

It's not that simple. 4 elem/internal res +4 shield would be better then flat 4% vs. attacks that do internal/elemental damage and are avoidable. It would be same against unavoidable elem/internal attacks. And it would be worse vs kinetic/energy attacks. So yeah, overall probably worse in current content. Major difference? Not really.

Second,the worst time to use enraged defense on tank-swap bosses (which both 1st and 2nd EC bosses require in HM) is right after you switch. The reason is because right after taunt you and the other tank have the same threat, if you then use enraged the boss goes back to him, which will be fatal on the 2nd EC boss (on the 1st you can use your aoe taunt to correct since the bosses move slow). After a few tries I stopped bothering with it frankly, it's not worth the trouble in HM. In storymode you can do whatever, the fights are a joke anyways and most of the mechanics can be ignored.

[Jerec]

31/7/3 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMG...zZcMMZzM.1 Imo.
Been in Denova a few times normal and HM now, no issues at all.
The only useless talent at the top of the Immortal tree is Thrown Gauntlet. Idc about force push execpt for pvp but that is another thread.
The midigation is excellent, the stats I try and stay close to are as follows:

40% shield chance & shield absorb (with shield/absorb relic to proc these to 50%)
23% defence (should be 30% ish with retaliation proc)
accuracy you can range 95%-100%, less than 95% and you will gimp yourself it seems

Currently I am in full rakata with sythwaver crits (belt, wrist, exo boots), augmented LS and implant. These help refine stats closer to desired.
Single target is extremely manageable, which is most boss fights. Aoe or add tanking can be difficult however. My group cc's in hm, and just does a kill order in normal, this is extemely effective with threating scream as a crutch and spec'd into Decimate. If you have threat issues ask for assist priv's, mark and give some orders.

For boss fights losing aggro from snap dps happens, having an aware group helps. My best opener atm is as follows:

SaberThrow>F.Charge>Smash>F.Scream>Backhand>Enrage (if needed)>CrushingBlow>ForceChoke>Ravage

Note: I have macro's formed in my mouse and gamepad to make this opener with ease. Also retaliation can be used almost anywhere in that squence, as well as taunt incase it is not enough for agressive dps. I tend to use backhand and crushing as soon as possible since both these yeild increases in threat. And remember that most classes have a threat dump, tell them to use it. ;P

[Lagrik]

I use same build as Jerec except one variation. I put 2 points in Intimidation (Solidified Force) than Thrown Gauntlet (Gauntlet). Both are kind of meh though. Lower cooldown on Intimidation lets you have more force every minute by having Chiling Sream (Hilt Strike) cost less but it's only every 60 minutes so not much of a gain there. And Thrown Gauntlet lets you Force Push more often which isn't needed all that much. So ya, either or.

[Ishtaar]

Hello all,

I've tryed both templates (Hybrid and deep immortal one) after the 1.2 patch. I actually tank EC HM as Main tank.

I have to say that the hybrid one (17/22/2) is quite good for mitigation and for the reduction of "intimidating roar" cd, which make us, "theorically", more efficient in keeping aggro regarding to the actual taunting system. BUT ! If the first boss (in HM) is manageable, the 20 first seconds of the second one (in HM) is quite a hell and can, from time to time, end in a wipe... Even with an aggro reset, some classes' got an enormous threat generation (Ex. Marauder), and it's a real tough task to keep ourselves first on threat before the first swap. Obviously, for the first minute of this fight, we absolutely can't use our taunts to improve our threat just when we want to. In fact, we ought to keep it for the boss swaps or for any aggro lost.
The only solution I found (as MT and RL) is to ask my mates to not hit the boss for the first 10sec, which is quite frustrating... It's supposed to be our job to keep aggro to let them full dps, is it not ? ^^

So for the time being, I find it better for us to keep going with the deep immortal spec (31/8/2 | 32/7/2), even if it means to lose a small (I can't say negligeable) amount of survivability. Our healers can easily keep us alive even without the deafening defense (which is a completely useless skill for these two fights, especially the second one, regarding to the impossibility to use it --> An immediate lose of aggro).

[Gauss]

Just wanted to give the quick update that we didnot raid the new operation this weekend. So, nothing new from me. Lagrik/Jerec's built seem good, though.

[Xrande]

Tanked Toth and Zorn HM with 17/22/2 build.

Survivability is ok. But tank swapping threat is an issue especially the opening swap when 1x Mara and 1x PT going all out. So yes for anything else, hybrid would be the choice. But in EC, it is best to go 31 builds.

[Caeden]

Have any of you been parsing combat logs for the Hybrid and the 31 Immortal builds? Can you provide any links?

[Xrande]

How are you guys managing your stats and augments?
My shield is around 46, Absorb 41. HP: 19900 unbuffed.

My new rakata augmented is still missing augment, wondering if I should stack fortitude augment or absorb ones. Any suggestions?

With 31 Immortal.
This is my gear:
http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/ad...bc495de43e

[Jerec]

I'm having trouble with quoting today.. .

With aggro on FasT fight (Fire and Storm), I find a the rotation I placed prior pulls decent threat, I'm sure most of you know this but Gaurd those Dps that do pull threat.

Also manage your Taunts like a protective CD use them when needed most, the word I hate to hear is 'saving' them. What should be done (imo of course) is for their CD to return just before they are need again. When you learn fights you learn when dps is really pushing and when your own threat is low. Managing these CD's come easier with practice and you will be able to anticipate their need before threat is lost.

Back to FasT HM, I usually open with the previous stated rotation, and mix Taunt in by Smash or F.Scream. due to threat loss. I pop Threatening Scream since I am on Stormcaller on DD movement back from dropping it on two melee to ensure I hold aggro. By the time tank swap happens I have Taunt back for sure, and TS is seconds away or up as well. And while on Fire I taunt as need till the storm phase. Then rinse repeat.

For Z&T HM I start on Toth, I open the same but Taunt burn before he does his knockback. TS only if aggro is lost (which for is durring the Beserk Phases for me). Zorn, I drop Enraged Defence while he is throwing rocks building rage, and the second his cast ends I Threatening Scream>Ravage>BackHand>CrushingBlow to start. On Toths pound if you are not stepping out do so, intercede on a dps with low hp that is near you, pop enrged defence if your TS is up or will be at the end of his beserk, use it when it is over (I usually watch Zorns cast to time it). ALWAYS make sure to manage your Taunt for the boss swap, and this fight can be easy for at least you the tank.