Immortal | Defense Discussion

[Teurion]

(04-17-2012 06:25 AM)Coriolis Wrote:  You're loosing 4% shield chance and 4% internal/elemental damage mitigation, to gain 4% flat mitigation. Also, using enraged defense in the new op. is a bad idea since half the fights require tank switching, and if you use it you will most likely loose aggro and have it go back to the other tank (which can be lethal). Your threat is also most likely a bit inferior because of the lack of crushing blow and having less rage (lack of 25 pnt immortal talent), although if you get impale and don't use enraged defense much, that's a minor issue.

*shrug* in reality there isn't much difference between the two tank specs, neither before patch, nor now. Hybrid is still better for the off-tank who wants to dps occasionally, and immortal is still a bit better for doing instance runs (where stuns matter), and (in the new patch) threat.

As for relic, get the relic with absorb proc (the only other choice for a passive relic is the shard and this one is a bit better) and a +def activated trinket. Or just go with matrix shard + passive relic if you aren't good about using activated trinkets.

4% flat mitigation is superior to just 4% elemental damage and a 4% chance as i discussed, 4% covers all damage, including elemental, and 4% shield chance as I said above isn't a huge deal, as it was before patch, because you can stack shield rating. The threat for ops so far, I have not had aggro issues, I am doing EC this Fri, I am aware of the tank swap, and that is where you would have to wait for the switch to activate focused defense. Losing hilt strike is not as a big deal as ever because of the 1 min cd, so i don't see that as a huge threat loss, guardian slash, I have not tested for the aggro, but right now i don't have issues, I will have to test it on the new content. This build has been effective against all HM so far and lost island to this point, so EC is the only case where i will have to examine the aggro/threat, but don't see where it would be if my dps is not giving me threat issues as it stands.

[jmwtech]

I'm giving it a try tomorrow in EC as well.

[Gauss]

So, I've tested the new operation with my new jugg main (switched from sorc heal) and ran with the following built:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMG...MrhzzZMz.1


I did not much research prior to choosing this built, so in hindsight I am not that satisified but here are my impressions (All pieces War Leader except wrists and hands which are Vindicator. Relics are Rakata def relic and def Matrix cube):

Zorn and Toth (storymode):
(first time using that configuration)
I kept aggro constantly, so I always had my taunt ready when I had to swap.
Sometimes I was low on rage which I attribute to my lack of routine.
Fight all in all was very smooth.

Firebrand and Stormcaller (story):
Let me say beforehand, we did not kill these bosses yet, so no successful attempt was recorded.
Here, I had threat/aggro problems. Especially in the beginning I was missing a high threat ability to keep aggro (started with Stormcaller); Backhand and Crushing Blow were missed. One could argue that DPS should just limit themselves but this fight is on a tight enrage timer. So, you just want your DPS to give it a go from the first sec. Rage was also an issue, I had to constantly use expensive abilities where Sweeping Fury might have been useful.

Very subjectively and without any other proof than my personal experience, I felt that I was rather lacking threat than survivability(was rarely the first to die). This perceived lack led to increased dmg on DPS and healers and ultimately led to our demise. Regarding the patch notes, I guess Backhand and Crushing Blow might have helped with that.

Hence, I'll try the following built next:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GMG...zZcMMZMz.1

[Teurion]

(04-18-2012 10:35 PM)Gauss Wrote:  So, I've tested the new operation with my new jugg main (switched from sorc heal) and ran with the following built:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMG...MrhzzZMz.1


I did not much research prior to choosing this built, so in hindsight I am not that satisified but here are my impressions (All pieces War Leader except wrists and hands which are Vindicator. Relics are Rakata def relic and def Matrix cube):

Zorn and Toth (storymode):
(first time using that configuration)
I kept aggro constantly, so I always had my taunt ready when I had to swap.
Sometimes I was low on rage which I attribute to my lack of routine.
Fight all in all was very smooth.

Firebrand and Stormcaller (story):
Let me say beforehand, we did not kill these bosses yet, so no successful attempt was recorded.
Here, I had threat/aggro problems. Especially in the beginning I was missing a high threat ability to keep aggro (started with Stormcaller); Backhand and Crushing Blow were missed. One could argue that DPS should just limit themselves but this fight is on a tight enrage timer. So, you just want your DPS to give it a go from the first sec. Rage was also an issue, I had to constantly use expensive abilities where Sweeping Fury might have been useful.

Very subjectively and without any other proof than my personal experience, I felt that I was rather lacking threat than survivability(was rarely the first to die). This perceived lack led to increased dmg on DPS and healers and ultimately led to our demise. Regarding the patch notes, I guess Backhand and Crushing Blow might have helped with that.

Hence, I'll try the following built next:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GMG...zZcMMZMz.1

Something for starting out, I use combat focus, saber throw, force leap, force sweep, master strike. You can do all this in a matter of seconds, and tell dps to wait till they see me force sweep before attacking. This gives me 3 solid attacks before they open up, and doesn't cost valuable time for aggro gain. I hopefully will have a go Fri to test aggro in EC, so I have no personal experience in that raid to speak of, however, my dps team are still the same guys I run with in other raids, so I don't foresee any threat issues since they don't give me any problem at the moment. I tend not to have focus/rage issues so far. Hope goes well for you on your other attempts.

[Gauss]

Thanks. As said, the fight is on a tight schedule, don't mind Hard Mode. I have come to the conclusion that Bioware wants Jugg Tanks to use the Immortal specc and designed their bosses so that it'll be harder when choosing a hybrid. I don't see any value in fighting the game mechanics, so I'll give full Immortal a try. Unfortunately, I can't compare the next try to the last since every raid member will know more about the fight than the last time. Therefore, everybody will perform better and it will be hard to tell whether I'll perceive an increase in performance due to a more suitable specc or because of learning effects.

[Xrande]

Why would you go so deep into Vengeance and not take Deafening Defense? The pt of deep Vengeance built is for 4% passive damage mitigation.

I tanked in 17/22/2 fine. Threat is usually finicky at first no problems w it. Low CD scream and 4% dmg red is best. Dont think I will ever go 31.

[Caeden]

I'm in the process of gathering combat logs and analyzing the types of damage and the ultimate damage taken per each of the specs I'm testing which is Deep Immortal with a 31/7/3 (you really do NOT need accuracy beyond what you probably have on gear) and the hybrid build most seem to be positing.

I plan to play a couple weeks as each to make sure I get the fights down enough to interpret the logs, that said I'm not really sure where you'd get more DPS from the hybrid versus deep Immortal. All you really add is a bleed to Force Scream and reduce its cooldown a little. I did between 535 and 617 dps based on the askmrrobot.com parser on boss fights in KP hardmode as deep immortal. On average crushing blow did about 600 more damage per strike than vicious slash (which would be your primary rage dump in the hybrid).

If tank gibbing isn't a cause for death and the hybrid has significantly lower DPS and enrage timers are what the progression is about, I'd go deep immortal honestly.

Data will win out.

I don't like to play armchair designer, but I'd like to see the hybrid killed outright and Enraged Defense made to be somewhat useful for tanks.

[Gauss]

(04-19-2012 04:23 AM)Xrande Wrote:  Why would you go so deep into Vengeance and not take Deafening Defense? The pt of deep Vengeance built is for 4% passive damage mitigation.

I have not had any problems with survivability at all but with threat. So, I wanted Impale and the combination of Decimate + Heavy Handed and Ravager seemed a good deal. Or what would you have changed? Anyhow, I'll give full Immortal a try tonite.

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(04-19-2012 06:03 AM)Caeden Wrote:  I'm in the process of gathering combat logs and analyzing the types of damage and the ultimate damage taken per each of the specs I'm testing which is Deep Immortal with a 31/7/3 (you really do NOT need accuracy beyond what you probably have on gear) and the hybrid build most seem to be positing.

I plan to play a couple weeks as each to make sure I get the fights down enough to interpret the logs, that said I'm not really sure where you'd get more DPS from the hybrid versus deep Immortal. All you really add is a bleed to Force Scream and reduce its cooldown a little. I did between 535 and 617 dps based on the askmrrobot.com parser on boss fights in KP hardmode as deep immortal. On average crushing blow did about 600 more damage per strike than vicious slash (which would be your primary rage dump in the hybrid).

If tank gibbing isn't a cause for death and the hybrid has significantly lower DPS and enrage timers are what the progression is about, I'd go deep immortal honestly.

Data will win out.

I don't like to play armchair designer, but I'd like to see the hybrid killed outright and Enraged Defense made to be somewhat useful for tanks.

Agreed. Also, I couldn't care less about DPS, when TPS is what I care about. And that seems to be top notch with the patched Tier 5 and 7 skills from the Immortal tree. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GMG...zZcMMZMz.1 Will be my first Immortal 31 attempt.

[Xrande]

(04-19-2012 11:07 PM)Gauss Wrote:  I have not had any problems with survivability at all but with threat. So, I wanted Impale and the combination of Decimate + Heavy Handed and Ravager seemed a good deal. Or what would you have changed? Anyhow, I'll give full Immortal a try tonite.

Ya, I meant it is either:

1. Full 31
2. Hybrid 17/22 for Deafening Defense

No point going Vengeance w/out DD. The only reason for Hybrid spec is for occasional dps increase for bosses like Bonetrasher and for dailies; esp Tatooine ones. Quite amazing how much Shien form + dps gear can do with Vette.

We already know that both spec are good in soaking dmg. For superior TPS, Full 31 is the way to go for single-target. AE threat hybrid still wins.

[jmwtech]

I've tried the hybrid in question out and for a main tank full Immortal is in my opinion slightly better as holding aggro is more predictable and stable because of the abilities. My healers told me there was negligible difference between the builds as far as they were concerned.

All in all the Hybrid brought my DPS up to about 700ish while the full immortal was around 550 to 600 in most boss fights.

Because of my experiences I'll be recommending this build to our Sith Warrior off tank as it provides better damage while not sacrificing much survivability.