Immortal | Defense Discussion

[DaGarver]

I haven't tried the new hybrid specs for 1.2, but I have been using a deep Immortal spec to some pretty good success.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101GMG...zZcRMZ0M.1


I'm a sucker for defensive cooldowns and spot CC, so Backhand and the Endure Pain duration increases are great reasons for me to stick with Immortal. I am not sure if the Force Push CDR is better than 2 of the points in Quake, I will have to mess around with it a bit and see which I like more. Revenge also seems to be a good reason to stay in Immortal, as you can keep churning out the abilities without worrying about your Rage production too much.

[Teurion]

Rage/Focus doesn't seem to be an issue so far with this build. Enure/Endure pain is nice for extra, but the added 15% damage reduction using fortified defense in conjunction with commanding awe modifier seems better. This build seems to have a better damage mitigation stance, always 4% more than you will with deep immortal build.

[Zagok]

(04-15-2012 02:24 AM)Teurion Wrote:  Teurion:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hMG...rhzzMZ0M.1

Wouldn't this be the better hybrid spec where you still get all the threat/dps boost of hybrid and the defensiveness gains as well? Putting only 1 in sonic barrier still gives you a 50% change for it to proc, in addition you still get the full 4% mitigation of commanding awe?

While Sonic Barrier only absorbs about 800 dmg, reducing its proc chance to 50% effectively negates a 400 point heal every 9 seconds (and its worse than that, because it's even spikier).

In addition, I'm not so sure you benefit a lot from getting Impale. It's okay dmg, but it's a 4 rage ability with no extras post-1.2. The benefit of pre-1.2 hybrid builds was the constant Force Scream crits that were granted by Impale. I would rather have Shien form to be honest.

As far as Defiance/Accuracy/Gather Strength, I am mostly guessing at the best distribution, and probably have it wrong, so you might be right (especially if we no longer have the plethora of accuracy on rakata gear as a result of correct modding or as a result of new 1.2 items). However, I would move one point from any of those talents into Shien form, in case you have to dps - but that's more of a play-style/guild composition/gear issue.

Quote:DaGarver: I'm a sucker for defensive cooldowns and spot CC, so Backhand and the Endure Pain duration increases are great reasons for me to stick with Immortal. I am not sure if the Force Push CDR is better than 2 of the points in Quake, I will have to mess around with it a bit and see which I like more. Revenge also seems to be a good reason to stay in Immortal, as you can keep churning out the abilities without worrying about your Rage production too much.

Why do you want a spot CC? It only works on normal NPCs (which shouldn't need one) or players (I guess worthwhile in PVP). Would rather Vicious Slash with the 3 rage consumed by Backhand.

Also, Revenge is great and all, but free Smashes are better. You should not have rage issues in a hybrid spec.

[Xrande]

I tried 17/22/2 on HM EV. Not the most accurate test wout numbers partly because EV has been nerfed and our raid group ran w new ops healers post 1.2 that seemed OP.

My view is my dmg taken is less spiky. No rage issues. No threat issues whether single boss or ae. It is all about timing of when to use taunts. Full 31 is nothing compred to hybrid. While endure pain gives you defense it has high CD. We have enough defensive CD for that. Besides we can always used enraged defense for 15% dmg reduction and taunt back after.

Anyway shield is weak compared against 4% dmg reduction. Besides it is also useless against bosses like SOA where it is all force attacks.

I still think jugger immortal trees are weak. Sintanks have better passive stats that contribute shield and absorb with talents and their upper trees deal nice ae threat dmg. Real dmg. I find our top tier skills are lame. I dont think we need extra single target dmg or threat. Sintanks can survive better yet deal way more dmg. Easy testament is the duel of fates against assassins.

[Teurion]

(04-15-2012 09:41 AM)Zagok Wrote:  

(04-15-2012 02:24 AM)Teurion Wrote:  Teurion:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hMG...rhzzMZ0M.1

Wouldn't this be the better hybrid spec where you still get all the threat/dps boost of hybrid and the defensiveness gains as well? Putting only 1 in sonic barrier still gives you a 50% change for it to proc, in addition you still get the full 4% mitigation of commanding awe?

While Sonic Barrier only absorbs about 800 dmg, reducing its proc chance to 50% effectively negates a 400 point heal every 9 seconds (and its worse than that, because it's even spikier).

In addition, I'm not so sure you benefit a lot from getting Impale. It's okay dmg, but it's a 4 rage ability with no extras post-1.2. The benefit of pre-1.2 hybrid builds was the constant Force Scream crits that were granted by Impale. I would rather have Shien form to be honest.

As far as Defiance/Accuracy/Gather Strength, I am mostly guessing at the best distribution, and probably have it wrong, so you might be right (especially if we no longer have the plethora of accuracy on rakata gear as a result of correct modding or as a result of new 1.2 items). However, I would move one point from any of those talents into Shien form, in case you have to dps - but that's more of a play-style/guild composition/gear issue.

Quote:DaGarver: I'm a sucker for defensive cooldowns and spot CC, so Backhand and the Endure Pain duration increases are great reasons for me to stick with Immortal. I am not sure if the Force Push CDR is better than 2 of the points in Quake, I will have to mess around with it a bit and see which I like more. Revenge also seems to be a good reason to stay in Immortal, as you can keep churning out the abilities without worrying about your Rage production too much.

Why do you want a spot CC? It only works on normal NPCs (which shouldn't need one) or players (I guess worthwhile in PVP). Would rather Vicious Slash with the 3 rage consumed by Backhand.

Also, Revenge is great and all, but free Smashes are better. You should not have rage issues in a hybrid spec.

The point in sonic barrier is really just a flavor point with having nothing else to put it in that seems necessary, having the occasional sonic barrier when it does proc isnt bad. you can't say 400 damage, because when it does proc, you get the 850. Don't rely on this, but any little extra mitigation helps, especially when it is better than having no channeled stasis, a dps stance, or slight damage modifier. Going deep in the vigilance tree gives us a constant 4% damage mitigation, with a 45 sec cooldown of an extra 15%. Having shien form is useless for me, I am main raid tank, so never dps. I look at the spec build for pure tanking, no OT or dps on the side thing. Having overhead slash on a 9 sec cool down with the extra damage gives us an ability to use, because going that high in vigilance, you are not going to get an extra attack from the defense tree.

One of the reasons I am using accuracy is because i need it to get higher up in the tree, don;t see a better spot to put them and again don't want shein form since I never dps in a raid. If you were to sacrifice overhead slash to achieve the form, you again would be losing an extra attack that does some decent dps. I see this as a high survivability, MT and threat build.

[jmwtech]

Part of me thinks that this hybrid build might work but I don't really thing you gaining any thing. I'm a fully Immortal Jug and I have no aggro issues beyond the first few seconds on any end game fights so far. Healers can keep me up through any engagement aside from an enraged pyramid crash every now and then on SOA.

I agree the top end of the Immortal tree is lack luster but the extra dmg from Crushing Blow isn't menial not to mention the quickness of 5 stacks of armor debuff when used with improved armor sundering assault in the vengeance tree. Add to that the additional threat they added in 1.2 it's definitely a nice top tiered ability.

Backhand is pretty essential for an off tank IMO. In fights where you have two tanks on the same boss backhand allows them to generate a lot of extra threat without using a taunt that would pull the boss off the OT.

I'll also add that I had a OT Jugg respec to this (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMG...Muz0MZ0M.1) and his dps on the same dummy I had hit wasn't that much higher. In fully Immortal spec I do around 560 dps and he did about 700 in the hybrid spec. For the sacrifice with our test in mind I don't know that the hybrid spec shows any real benefit.

[Kantern]

New Juggy tank here, our guild rerolled to empire for funs. Come from playing a sage.

Anyways, I am trying to find information on ideal relics to spend my commendations on. Is it the kind of thing you want different ones for different boss fights? ie Absorbtion ones for fights with heavy damage you can shield, defense otherwise?

Is the passive one any good?

Thanks!

[Teurion]

(04-16-2012 11:21 PM)jmwtech Wrote:  Part of me thinks that this hybrid build might work but I don't really thing you gaining any thing. I'm a fully Immortal Jug and I have no aggro issues beyond the first few seconds on any end game fights so far. Healers can keep me up through any engagement aside from an enraged pyramid crash every now and then on SOA.

I agree the top end of the Immortal tree is lack luster but the extra dmg from Crushing Blow isn't menial not to mention the quickness of 5 stacks of armor debuff when used with improved armor sundering assault in the vengeance tree. Add to that the additional threat they added in 1.2 it's definitely a nice top tiered ability.

Backhand is pretty essential for an off tank IMO. In fights where you have two tanks on the same boss backhand allows them to generate a lot of extra threat without using a taunt that would pull the boss off the OT.

I'll also add that I had a OT Jugg respec to this (http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMG...Muz0MZ0M.1) and his dps on the same dummy I had hit wasn't that much higher. In fully Immortal spec I do around 560 dps and he did about 700 in the hybrid spec. For the sacrifice with our test in mind I don't know that the hybrid spec shows any real benefit.

The build is about the most survivability, that is what you gain from this, the extra dps is nice, but not the crutch of the build. Having hilt strike is not necessary if you go full aggro on the boss. You will generate plenty of threat without it, and if it is an issue where you have to swap, that is exactly what taunt is for. Being #2 on threat so far isn't necessary to be, but you should be if you are doing your full rotation. That being said, back the the benefits of this build.

Threat isn't an issue with it, you do some more damage, which causes more threat, but the great thing with this build is the extra damage reduction you get. Commanding awe gives you a flat out, always there 4% damage reduction. It is a definitive, always there, knocked down, stunned, asleep damage mitigation. In conjunction with focused defense, on a 45 sec cool down, you receive an extra flat out 15% damage reduction, can be used when stunned, knocked down, incapacitated. This is 15% extra mitigation every 45 secs, healers like that. Use target of target to watch out for if the threat drop on it puts you under a dps, and have your aoe taunt ready, which is also 45 secs long. I like using that one, you can use your single target 8 sec one if you like, doesn't matter, which ever one you like to smash first. This works because on most raid bosses, there is just the 1 of them and there aren't diminishing returns on taunts with them.

The other 2 benefits of this hybrid, is the damage reduction and not being able to be stunned from force leap, the other using guardian leap to apply the 20% damage reduction to yourself. The guardian leap is a pure situational use though, you don't want to use it on a boss that cleaves so he doesn't turn for a second and give your raid team some loving. Going full Immortal does not give you this damage reduction.

With this build, you are losing no channeled force stasis, not a biggy, courage, not that much an issue with free force sweeps, 4% shield chance, not much of a loss since you are gaining 4% total damage reduction and can stack shield chance, guradian slash, hilt strike, and a longer enure. These aren't much of "tank" things, the higher aggro is nice, but hilt strike on 1 min cd isn't used often, Guardian slash is nice every 12-15 secs, can't remember cool down on it, but too high to sacrifice for damage mitigation. A longer enure is ok with 4% elemental damage reduction, but 4% total damage reduction with an option to go 15% is better than a couple extra secs on 30% health. So there is your benefit of this over being full immortal. I have not had any threat issues using this in KP and EV, have not been in EC yet, but will be this Fri with my guild, the raid won't change their threat. Without a threat meter, I can't say which turns out with more tps, but without even crunching major numbers, you can see that damage is mitigated a lot more this way.

Remember,
Rule number 1, stay alive best you can.
Rule number 2, Keep aggro
Rule number 3, be easier to heal for your healers, especially for spike damage.
Rule number 4, contribute to dps, only if it doesn't hinder rules 1-3.

So with this build, you hit major points of tanking, keeping threat, holding aggro, and mitigating lots of damage.

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(04-17-2012 12:30 AM)Kantern Wrote:  New Juggy tank here, our guild rerolled to empire for funs. Come from playing a sage.

Anyways, I am trying to find information on ideal relics to spend my commendations on. Is it the kind of thing you want different ones for different boss fights? ie Absorbtion ones for fights with heavy damage you can shield, defense otherwise?

Is the passive one any good?

Thanks!

The first relic to get is the matrix shard, it is a great relic with static endurance, def and threat stats. The other relic would be something like the light/darkside 52 endurance relics from the vendors. These are easy to get until you get in a Hm, like taral v, that drops a relic with an on use defense stat on it. If you are artifice, you can make your relics. They have some decent rakata relics. Those options there should hold you over until you can afford the new daily vendor one that mimics the drop from fabricator droid in KP. The defense relic is nice to have handy when you know a lot of damage is coming in conjunction with our other cooldowns, like in KP when the second boss thrashes on you. The last thing that will make things easier on you is go back to a Jedi Knight Guardian tank and leave the darkside lol. The light loves their tanks. Sorry, I am bias for Republic and being a Jedi ha ha.

[jmwtech]

Translating the jedi to sith ability sucks. Your points are valid. Maybe I'll respec for our Wed run and see how it performs. The only thing I was worried about was aggro.

[Coriolis]

You're loosing 4% shield chance and 4% internal/elemental damage mitigation, to gain 4% flat mitigation. Also, using enraged defense in the new op. is a bad idea since half the fights require tank switching, and if you use it you will most likely loose aggro and have it go back to the other tank (which can be lethal). Your threat is also most likely a bit inferior because of the lack of crushing blow and having less rage (lack of 25 pnt immortal talent), although if you get impale and don't use enraged defense much, that's a minor issue.

*shrug* in reality there isn't much difference between the two tank specs, neither before patch, nor now. Hybrid is still better for the off-tank who wants to dps occasionally, and immortal is still a bit better for doing instance runs (where stuns matter), and (in the new patch) threat.

As for relic, get the relic with absorb proc (the only other choice for a passive relic is the shard and this one is a bit better) and a +def activated trinket. Or just go with matrix shard + passive relic if you aren't good about using activated trinkets.