Immortal | Defense Discussion

[Caeden]

Since the compendium for this topic is out of date, I'm closing it. Use this thread to discuss 1.2 details until a new compendium is written or the old one updated for the new patch.

~Kaedis

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I'm currently debating which spec to use. 31/8/2 seemed like a popular one being thrown about. Do people feel the loss of Huddle killed hybrids?

With taunt and threat working as it does, I'm questioning the need for accuracy as a tank. I would rather dump the points into something else (Dreadnaught?). I've also been looking at potentially taking Unleashed in Immortal and then picking up Malice in Rage to get Payback. A 10% heal every 1.5 minutes would be nice. Not sure where to put the last 1 point leftover. (31/2/7 + 1 wandering point).

[Winter]

I'm trying out a 31/7/3 PvE build right now.solo/duo seems fine atm. need to get into some hard modes and ops groups to see how it fares there.

[Xrande]

Using the hybrid build in 1.2.

19/22/0:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101rMG...rrRMhz0M.1

Best of both worlds. You get the low Force Scream CD for constant Sonic Barrier + 4% passive dmg reduction and further 15% w/ Enraged Defense at the expense of losing aggro. Good for emergency, use Enraged, then taunt it back. We lose the extra 20% dmg and 3s lower CD from Smash for poorer AOE aggro.

I like that this build allows you to switch to Shien form w/ dps gear when fighting boss like Bonetrasher with no aggro table; at least until they introduce dual-spec.

I still find Immortal tree lackluster for a so-called tank class. Tier 5-7 is basically single-target threat which we don't really have much problem with. Why get activated 4% internal dmg reduction when you can have it 100% passive in Vengeance tree? Not sure what Bioware is smoking here.

[Zagok]

(04-13-2012 01:57 PM)Xrande Wrote:  Using the hybrid build in 1.2.

19/22/0:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101rMG...rrRMhz0M.1

Best of both worlds. You get the low Force Scream CD for constant Sonic Barrier + 4% passive dmg reduction and further 15% w/ Enraged Defense at the expense of losing aggro. Good for emergency, use Enraged, then taunt it back. We lose the extra 20% dmg and 3s lower CD from Smash for poorer AOE aggro.

I like that this build allows you to switch to Shien form w/ dps gear when fighting boss like Bonetrasher with no aggro table; at least until they introduce dual-spec.

I still find Immortal tree lackluster for a so-called tank class. Tier 5-7 is basically single-target threat which we don't really have much problem with. Why get activated 4% internal dmg reduction when you can have it 100% passive in Vengeance tree? Not sure what Bioware is smoking here.

Not sure that I agree completely with the spec. I think our goals with talents should be survivability > aoe threat > dps. You hit all the survivability talents, but I would up aoe dmg next. Instead of putting points into Battle Cry (if you aren't interceding for defense, should be fewer force charges anyways) and Revenge (you have a rage-free smash anyways, so all it does is decrease force scream in Sorensu form), I would put points into Heavy-Handed and Decimate. This gives our aoe dmg the biggest boost possible (28% extra Smash and Sweeping Slash with 3 seconds faster rage-free Smash) without going Rage. I'm going to miss critting force scream all the time though...

I will probably try out something like this (17/22/2): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMG...Mhz0MZ0M.1

Pre-1.2, I used to take Shien form for dps with the hybrid build and I liked it a lot. Should help us to some extent as off-tanks now

Also, I completely agree about high-end Immortal being pointless.

[Caeden]

I personally like the way deep immortal plays, but I agree its not "great" from a tank standpoint. I actually think the hybrid with Deafening Defense may be stronger than the previous Hybrid build. However, do you not feel rage starved?

[Xrande]

(04-13-2012 05:30 PM)Zagok Wrote:  Not sure that I agree completely with the spec. I think our goals with talents should be survivability > aoe threat > dps. You hit all the survivability talents, but I would up aoe dmg next. Instead of putting points into Battle Cry (if you aren't interceding for defense, should be fewer force charges anyways) and Revenge (you have a rage-free smash anyways, so all it does is decrease force scream in Sorensu form), I would put points into Heavy-Handed and Decimate. This gives our aoe dmg the biggest boost possible (28% extra Smash and Sweeping Slash with 3 seconds faster rage-free Smash) without going Rage. I'm going to miss critting force scream all the time though...

I will probably try out something like this (17/22/2): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMG...Mhz0MZ0M.1

Pre-1.2, I used to take Shien form for dps with the hybrid build and I liked it a lot. Should help us to some extent as off-tanks now

Also, I completely agree about high-end Immortal being pointless.

Interesting choice. I like your build, some necessary tweaks. I have to try it though. Not sure about rage issues. My 19/22 build do not have any rage issues or threat issues in Ops. I don't think 17/22 will have much rage issues either. This build makes us better hybrid than pre-1.2. I thought they were trying to remove hybrid jugger tanks. I still find it dumb that pouring more points into Vengeance allows us better survivability.

1.2 Hybrid is definitely better with deafening defense. You lose 4% shield and trade it for passive 4% dmg reduction.

[Malagant]

So assuming someone decides to use the 19/22 or the 17/22/2 builds is most of the other information in the original post still valid? Like rotation etc...


No concerns not having backhand in these builds? or making force grip an instant?

Gonna try it out, but it makes me wonder....

[zaios]

personally im not a hug fan of the "new" hybrid specs that im seeing, you either completely miss out on impale + its dot if you only go as far as deafening defences in Veng, or if you do pick up impale, you start to miss out on the extra shield chance etc.

While its defencive stats are solid, with the recent buffs to some of the DPS classes, the extra threat gen from Crushing Blow/Impale seem too good to pass up atm in order to let DPS do their thing.

Staying alive is one part of a tanks role, but threat gen is another important one to me at least also.

[Zagok]

(04-14-2012 05:04 PM)zaios Wrote:  personally im not a hug fan of the "new" hybrid specs that im seeing, you either completely miss out on impale + its dot if you only go as far as deafening defences in Veng, or if you do pick up impale, you start to miss out on the extra shield chance etc.

While its defencive stats are solid, with the recent buffs to some of the DPS classes, the extra threat gen from Crushing Blow/Impale seem too good to pass up atm in order to let DPS do their thing.

Staying alive is one part of a tanks role, but threat gen is another important one to me at least also.

I agree that threat is always a priority. However, given the current taunt mechanics (1.2 didn't change it, right?), tanks should rarely have single-target threat issues unless there are threat wipes. Taunting from outside of the hit box places one's threat at 130% of highest target's threat. Because this is a percentage of total threat generated AND because it does this even when the tank is at the top of the threat list, taunt makes threat grow exponentially as the fight progresses. Beyond the first 2-3 taunts, single-target threat is entirely about taunting on cool-down (being smart about boss mechanics that drop threat, of course), and not about dps or high threat abilities. Impale/CB are single-target dps, so they are worthless from a threat generation standpoint once you have gotten a few taunts in. I'm only going to miss Impale+ for the extra dps when I fill a dps role (Bonethrasher, etc.).

On the other hand, our multi-target taunt works the same way, but has a 45s cooldown (regardless of talents), so maxing aoe dps becomes the #1 priority outside of mitigation. Smash and Sweeping Slash are all that we have for aoe dps, so any talent that improves them are absolute musts (Heavy Handed/Decimate).

I haven't played this build yet (traveling), but I expect to have no rage issues and an easier rotation too. Free Smashes means I just need to have enough rage to Force Scream every 9 seconds. Everything else is about making things die faster and pretty much becomes seeing how many Vicious Slashes I can fit in with Ravage (clipped?). If I need rage and Enrage is not available, I can always Force Choke or Intercede/Saber Throw/Force Charge (which might be worth it on certain fights for Unstoppable anyways).

As I see it, the only real question going forward is whether 4% shield specialization is better than the benefit Deafening Defense provides over Dark Blood. If so, then maybe a deeper Immortal would be worth it.

[Teurion]

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500hMG...rhzzMZ0M.1

Wouldn't this be the better hybrid spec where you still get all the threat/dps boost of hybrid and the defensiveness gains as well? Putting only 1 in sonic barrier still gives you a 50% change for it to proc, in addition you still get the full 4% mitigation of commanding awe?