Marksmanship Sniper/Sharpshooter Gunslinger Compendium

[Sacred]

Tibbel,

How accurate is your spreadsheet regarding the recent 1.2 changes to Expertise? I want to min/max my PvP gear (lethality) and your spreadsheet shows Power/Surge are far more valuable than Expertise for me. The only reason I ask is because there was the latest post from Goerg Zoeller regarding PvP and Expertise:

Quote:TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

Right now my surge is very low and accuracy is over the cap with 1/2 BM and 1/2 Champion. I was planning on removing some Mods/Enhancements with accuracy and swapping them with Columi Power/Surge ones but I will lose 25 Expertise per.

I would just like to know the benefit/loss from swapping them out?

[dragonhawk]

I was wondering if anyone had tried a variation on the Cull spec where instead of grabbing Cull/Wounding Shots they instead went for Followthrough/Trickshot. You would give up Cull and 12% crit on your dots but would be able to pickup Snipers Nest/Foxhole, 2 points in Sniper Volley/Burst Volley, and Followthrough/Trickshot. This would seem to offer fantastic regen and Followthrough (particularly after the buff) seems to be a better dps option than Cull, considering energy costs.

[Tibbel]

(04-26-2012 07:58 AM)Sacred Wrote:  Tibbel,

How accurate is your spreadsheet regarding the recent 1.2 changes to Expertise?

That's a good catch. I still had the old divisor in the expertise formula (was 0.2, should be 0.5).

I've fixed the formula in the spreadsheet, and made the following updates as well:

2012-04-16 to 2012-04-25

• Updated: The following abilities have had their AmountModifierPercent, Coefficient, and StandardHealthPercent updated to account for their 5% damage buff in patch 1.2.1:
  • Ambush: AmountModifierPercent = 1.310, Coefficient = 3.45, StandardHealthPercent = 0.345
  • Followthrough: AmountModifierPercent = 0.586, Coefficient = 2.38, StandardHealthPercent = 0.238
  • Series of Shots: AmountModifierPercent = -0.315, Coefficient = 1.03, StandardHealthPercent = 0.103
  • Snipe: AmountModifierPercent = 0.290, Coefficient = 1.94, StandardHealthPercent = 0.194
  • Takedown: AmountModifierPercent = 0.890, Coefficient = 2.84, StandardHealthPercent = 0.284
• Fixed: Gunslinger off-hand ranged attacks now correctly count toward Burst Volley.
• Added: The energy gain from Lethal Purpose (4th tier of the Lethality skill tree) is now factored into the stat weights for critical rating and cunning on the 'Stat Weights' tab.
  • The model assumes that the extra energy is used to replace Rifle Shots with Snipes.
  • Note that this is still a small undervaluation of the stat weights for critical rating and cunning if this extra energy would be used for other abilities instead of Snipe.
• Fixed: Armor debuffs stack once again, despite claims this would be disallowed starting in patch 1.2.
• Fixed: The diminishing returns formula for expertise now correctly has a divisor of 0.5, rather than 0.2.

The link in the leading post now links to this new version of the spreadsheet.

[Quorra]

(04-26-2012 07:12 AM)Tibbel Wrote:  The question remains, though -- is it better to save the adrenal and relic for Orbital Strike and/or a SV proc, or do we get more net benefit by using them right away and keeping them on cooldown to maximize the number of uses?

Anyone have any thoughts or calculations regarding this?

My rule of thumb is to try to use them both right away at the start of the fight. This also happens to be the time when my rotation is the most predictable as everything is available to use at the start of a boss fight, nothing should be on CD.

Since my relic is 2min and my orbital strike is untalented and still 1min (2/8/31 spec), I do my best to line up my relic use with every other orbital strike.

With the adrenal though it varies. Sometimes I try to fire that off with the fourth orbital strike, but other times I will save it for a potential burn at the end of a fight. It is very rare that a fight lasts long enough for me to use the adrenal a third time.

[Rapter]

Thanks for all the opinions on Leth vs. MM/MM/Eng.

I have a question on MM/Eng talent setup which has bugged me for a couple of weeks, and now with the damage boost on SoS, Snipe, Ambush, and FT, I feel like it would be more efficient to fill out Between the Eyes, using one talent point from the Critical Strike% Talent in Lethality (oddly called Lethality).

So here i am juggling 2% on everything, or 3% for SoS, FT, Snipe, and 1% on everything else. I'm tempted to go with Between the eyes because my parsing has told me that SoS and FT are the two largest sources of damage in MM/Eng. I'm planning on testing out both Spec's, but just wanted to put that in there.

[Tibbel]

(04-26-2012 10:30 AM)Rapter Wrote:  Thanks for all the opinions on Leth vs. MM/MM/Eng.

I have a question on MM/Eng talent setup which has bugged me for a couple of weeks, and now with the damage boost on SoS, Snipe, Ambush, and FT, I feel like it would be more efficient to fill out Between the Eyes, using one talent point from the Critical Strike% Talent in Lethality (oddly called Lethality).

So here i am juggling 2% on everything, or 3% for SoS, FT, Snipe, and 1% on everything else. I'm tempted to go with Between the eyes because my parsing has told me that SoS and FT are the two largest sources of damage in MM/Eng. I'm planning on testing out both Spec's, but just wanted to put that in there.

It's extremely close either way.

I had calculated (in this thread's second post) that the Between the Eyes skill increased MM/Eng DPS by 0.73% per point, while the Lethality skill increased DPS by 0.75% per point.

100% of BtE's benefit (SoS, Snipe, FT) was buffed by 5% in patch 1.2.1, so BtE's value was increased to 0.73% * (1 + 100% * 5%) = 0.7665% per point.

Of course, by buffing our damage, the value of critting more also increased -- that means the value of the Lethality skill increased, too. If we assume that Snipe + Ambush + FT + SoS + TD accounts for 65% of MM/Eng's total DPS, then Lethality's benefit is increased to 0.75% * (1 + 65% * 5%) = 0.7744% per point.

In short, it doesn't really matter. The difference between the two skills is equivalent to the difference between doing 1500.0 DPS and 1500.1 DPS, or a difference of 423 damage per hour.

[Flyinfungi]

I filled out the information for a war hero geared MM sniper. I find the results disturbingly low for each piece of expertise I add. This is against the Battlemaster Mercenary target. I know resilience has other benefits besides damage, but I would still expect the stat to be a higher weight even for just damage. Keep in mind these numbers are not anywhere close to what a PvP rotation would be (orbital strike always hitting, using scatter shot, corrosive dart, etc), but I wanted to get a feel.



Two requests if possible.

Add PvP adrenal as a choice. That must be more difficult to do as its a 15% increase to expertise.
Add in the abilities section "theoretical max damage" and "theoretical low damage" for abilities. Finding out what my max damage I can achieve from a crit ambush/followthrough combo is helpful.

Add max ability damage. I would be interested what my highest single target damage would be against a target.

[Tibbel]

(04-27-2012 04:59 AM)Flyinfungi Wrote:  I filled out the information for a war hero geared MM sniper. I find the results disturbingly low for each piece of expertise I add.

Two things that may be contributing to the low value of expertise:

1. Are you using the current version of the spreadsheet? There was an error in the formula from versions 2012-04-12 (patch 1.2) through 2012-04-25 (yesterday) which caused some pretty strange outputs regarding expertise.
2. You have a ton of expertise. While expertise's DR curve is much less sharp than most other stats, by the time we get up as high as 1291 rating, we're close to halfway to the expertise limit (23.95% out of 50%) -- which means we've fallen close to half of its per-point benefit -- meanwhile, we've also increase the relative value of other stats by something like 23.95%.

Quote:Two requests if possible.

Add PvP adrenal as a choice. That must be more difficult to do as its a 15% increase to expertise.
Add in the abilities section "theoretical max damage" and "theoretical low damage" for abilities. Finding out what my max damage I can achieve from a crit ambush/followthrough combo is helpful.

You're not the first one to request this.
Still, it's not at the top of my list of things to add -- primarily because it's pretty simple to calculate without the spreadsheet; just multiply the damage you deal over any 15-second period by 1.15.

It'll probably be something that I add at some point. If it'll make a big difference, I'll do it sooner than later.

Quote:Add max ability damage. I would be interested what my highest single target damage would be against a target.

This is already included on the 'Abilities' tab. There's a Hit column and a Crit column. For abilities with more than one tick, the values in those columns assume all ticks are hits or are crits.

[Flyinfungi]

Quote:Two things that may be contributing to the low value of expertise:

1. Are you using the current version of the spreadsheet? There was an error in the formula from versions 2012-04-12 (patch 1.2) through 2012-04-25 (yesterday) which caused some pretty strange outputs regarding expertise.

I am using the current version of the spreadsheet. The title is date stamped as 2012-04-25.

Quote:

You have a ton of expertise. While expertise's DR curve is much less sharp than most other stats, by the time we get up as high as 1291 rating, we're close to halfway to the expertise limit (23.95% out of 50%) -- which means we've fallen close to half of its per-point benefit -- meanwhile, we've also increase the relative value of other stats by something like 23.95%.

This was what I was afraid of. I should not be seeking PvE gear in a PvP environment. Especially ranked environments. Right now it looks like I need to look for PvE gear in order to max my damage and have a more efficient TTK. I might even see a net increase in survival if I can get enough endurance gains.

From Dulfy I get the values of total expertise on the following...

• Warhero: 1291
• Battlemaster: 1164
• Recruit: 896
  

Adding the expertise graph from his site for a comparison. I will need to figure out where that sweet spot is in expertise.



Expertise is being hailed as the golden stat that you should get over other stats. I think this rational is due in part of how the developers have communicate the subject. Bold added by me. Quote from Georg Zoeller 04.20.2012 the Lead Technical Designer at Bioware.

Greg Zoeller Wrote:(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

While I understand this applies for the Columi gear my hypothesis is that the best way you can gear yourself out is a high amount of PvP gear with some end game PvE gear.

Quote:You're not the first one to request this.
Still, it's not at the top of my list of things to add -- primarily because it's pretty simple to calculate without the spreadsheet; just multiply the damage you deal over any 15-second period by 1.15.

It'll probably be something that I add at some point. If it'll make a big difference, I'll do it sooner than later.

Thanks, I tried to do due diligence by searching the previous 10 pages but missed it. Not that important to me as how it works currently is good enough to get an estimate.

[Tibbel]

(04-27-2012 07:44 AM)Flyinfungi Wrote:  

Georg Zoeller Wrote:(a) Expertise difference between combatants is the single most important factor in time to kill in PvP.

Having zero or little expertise on your gear (e.g. pure PvE gear) is the primary reason for people to experience a sped-up time to death in Game Update 1.2. While it was quite viable pre-1.2 to bring your Rakata or Columi gear without any added expertise into PvP, the increased focus on expertise in the PvP track of gear has made it much harder to compete with that equipment compared to even the entry level Recruit set.

Consequently, the single most effective step you can take to decrease time to death (i.e. increase time to kill of your opponent) is to gear for increased expertise. Coming from PvE, obtaining at least some pieces of Recruit gear is definitely recommended.

We're aware that this fact is not adequately communicated in the game and that the cost of recruit gear is perceived as too prohibitive by some of you. We're in the process of working on a solution for these issues at the moment.

TL;DR: Expertise is a lot more valuable than any other stat in PvP. Recruit gear easily beats Columi for PvP.

While I understand this applies for the Columi gear my hypothesis is that the best way you can gear yourself out is a high amount of PvP gear with some end game PvE gear.

The way he put it sounds like he's taking into account the damage reduction benefit of expertise in addition to the increased damage benefit. I can see that giving a significant time-to-kill advantage in favor of expertise (since damage reduction increases TTK non-linearly).

In any case, I'd be happy to continue this conversation in the PvP forum, since it's not really applicable to MM end-game PvE.