Marksmanship Sniper/Sharpshooter Gunslinger Compendium

[luckyfer]

swapped from 23/16/2 to 31/7/3 due to the patch today
and I'm close to our marauder now again.

he was about 5% ahead of me before the patch and now it's about 1%.
so the buffed 5% might actually be 5% this time.

[visceration]

Or regen is just too good for the MM/ENG build I can't drop it. I will say that it is a nice buff at the least. May have been due to losing armor debuf stacking, but a buff is a buff.

[Rapter]

Quote: Or regen is just too good for the MM/ENG build I can't drop it. I will say that it is a nice buff at the least. May have been due to losing armor debuf stacking, but a buff is a buff.

I Can't find any evidence that MM/Eng has higher regen. The Cluster bombs only gets you 15 energy back, but to use them you must spend 16 energy on Explosive probe. A net loss of 1 Energy. Looking into the MM tree, any boost of regen from that also exist for pure MM.
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On another note, I played Full MM until 1.2, and since then have tried MM/Eng, and I've settled on full Lethality. My concern stems from the new Raid, The Rotation for MM and MM/Eng is longer and is unforgiving if you mess up. The Rotation for Lethality is extremely forgiving in my opinion, and for fights that require alot of movement, enable much greater Damage while not in cover (for when re-positioning). I am curious to test my DPS versus MM with these 5% damage buffs, but, as I was pointing towards, the new raid provides a few problems specific to different specs.

From what my Operative guild mate found, doing Hard Mode Denova, having Lingering Toxins proves a huge problem on Toth/Zorn, so I do not have any points there, which in truth means I am not putting out as much DPS as I theoretically could be. Were BW to make lingering toxins not cause problems in Denova, I would probably stay Leth for the foreseeable future. In lieu of a fix, i might try full MM again especially with this new patch.

In general what are your opinions about the difficulties Snipers/Gunslinger encounter in the New Raid, and what advice would you guys suggest in regards to my indecision, spec-wise?

[Quorra]

(04-25-2012 09:40 AM)Rapter Wrote:  I Can't find any evidence that MM/Eng has higher regen. The Cluster bombs only gets you 15 energy back, but to use them you must spend 16 energy on Explosive probe. A net loss of 1 Energy. Looking into the MM tree, any boost of regen from that also exist for pure MM.

Well you should already be using explosive probe every 30 seconds anyway and are spending 40 energy every minute on this ability in a full MM spec. But in a hybrid MM/Eng spec you reduce the cost of EP by 4 to 16 and then you get 15 of that back from the cluster bombs for a net of 2 energy cost per minute. That means you now have an extra 38 energy every minute that you did not have in the full MM spec. When combined with Sniper's Nest and Sniper Volley which are both still accessible for a hybrid build, you have a noticeably higher energy regen total over full MM.

Quote:From what my Operative guild mate found, doing Hard Mode Denova, having Lingering Toxins proves a huge problem on Toth/Zorn, so I do not have any points there, which in truth means I am not putting out as much DPS as I theoretically could be. Were BW to make lingering toxins not cause problems in Denova, I would probably stay Leth for the foreseeable future. In lieu of a fix, i might try full MM again especially with this new patch.

Personally I solve this problem by asking to be assigned to Toth the whole time on HM EC. This of course depends on your raid composition, but in our group we have few enough melee that we always have some room for ranged on Toth and I use my DOT spec as an excuse to call dibs on that spot

[Somokon]

(04-25-2012 09:40 AM)Rapter Wrote:  On another note, I played Full MM until 1.2, and since then have tried MM/Eng, and I've settled on full Lethality. My concern stems from the new Raid, The Rotation for MM and MM/Eng is longer and is unforgiving if you mess up. The Rotation for Lethality is extremely forgiving in my opinion, and for fights that require alot of movement, enable much greater Damage while not in cover (for when re-positioning). I am curious to test my DPS versus MM with these 5% damage buffs, but, as I was pointing towards, the new raid provides a few problems specific to different specs.

From what my Operative guild mate found, doing Hard Mode Denova, having Lingering Toxins proves a huge problem on Toth/Zorn, so I do not have any points there, which in truth means I am not putting out as much DPS as I theoretically could be. Were BW to make lingering toxins not cause problems in Denova, I would probably stay Leth for the foreseeable future. In lieu of a fix, i might try full MM again especially with this new patch.

In general what are your opinions about the difficulties Snipers/Gunslinger encounter in the New Raid, and what advice would you guys suggest in regards to my indecision, spec-wise?

IMHO, go with MM or MM/Eng. I done all 4 bosses on HM, and both me (MM/Eng) and a fellow guild member (MM) have no problems putting out the required damage to beat the enrage timers. I disagree with the perception that Lethality is "more mobile" (40% of your damage is a 3 second channel!), and Lethality produces quite a few headaches of it's own.

• On HM, the trash isn't easy, CC is a must, so you have to be extremely careful with corrosive grenade (if you get to use it at all).
• When Toth leaps to Zorn, dots are cleared, causing you to have to reapply CG/CD.
• On Firebrand/Stormcaller, when inside the shield with the adds, you must use your knockback if you want to use corrosive grenade, so any melee that may be in with you has to sit there doing nothing.
• On Colonel Vorgath, there are two adds at the end that are usually CC'd, I haven't done this fight as Lethality, but they are potentially close enough to Vorgath himself that you cannot use corrosive grenade (would appreciate it if someone could confirm on this).
• On Kephess, on the phase with the shielded adds, you will not be able to use corrosive grenade until the shield is down or a tank pulls the shield carrier away.

(04-25-2012 08:07 AM)Tibbel Wrote:  Obviously, this is a smaller net gain for the other specs; they can't use FT at all, and they generally prioritize SoS, Ambush, and Snipe lower than we do as MM.

Based on my DPS tests posted a few pages back, pure Lethality should see a slightly under 1% DPS increase.

[felicity]

Personally I raid as Lethality simply because I tried all 3 specs on the test dummy and I got the highest DPS as Lethality and without factoring in Devouring Microbes. I got less DPS as Marksmanship and I don't think Marksmanships strength of handling target switching better and requiring less setup makes balances things out.

@Quorra & Rapter:
If you stay 25-30m from Zorn, you won't even get fearful. Operatives have it differently because they're melee.

@Somokon:
I call Lethality more mobile because poisons and weakening blast can all be used while you are in motion.

Also I don't see why you'd seriously think about Cover Pulsing the adds away just to use Corrosive Grenade. You have plenty of time to kill them without Corrosive Grenade.

[Cod]

(10-19-2011 12:12 PM)Tibbel Wrote:  Shatter Shot is a useful debuff to keep active on the target at all times. It increases not only our damage, but the damage from the entire ops group. Against a boss (or other important burn target), we should generally lead with Shatter Shot to maximize its up-time; however, if there is a juggernaut or arsenal mercenary also in the group, then they will supplying the armor debuff as part of their normal rotation, so after the initial use of Shatter Shot, it is generally not necessary to keep using it throughout the fight.

Just a quick question about this. I'm pretty sure that I read in the old thread that the armor debuffs stack, even from the same class. So shouldn't we be putting on as many as we can?

Last, if that's the case, do we know what happens if you debuff past 100%?

[Quorra]

(04-25-2012 03:53 PM)felicity Wrote:  @Quorra & Rapter:
If you stay 25-30m from Zorn, you won't even get fearful. Operatives have it differently because they're melee.

Maybe I'm either unlucky or just bad, but even at 29.8m from Zorn I still get fearful on the jump. If I am on Zorn, the only way I have been able to avoid fearful is if I back away before the jump to 35-40m and then move back in after. The problem with this is a small loss in DPS time and if I fail to time it right I end up with fearful anyway.

We don't quite use a triangle setup, it's a bit more like a trapezoid for positioning, but even being off to the side where Zorn is and at max range I still end up with those fearfuls. I am beginning to suspect that Toth casts the fearful in midflight as he jumps over and that it's possible he is closer to me due to the path he tacks to get across.

Anyway, it's ok for me to be on Toth and it has worked for us the past couple kills on HM EC. And if I ever need to switch to Zorn I just try to back out for each jump and hope I can time it right. On our kill last night Zorn was behind on damage and I had to switch to help even it out -- I got fearful and just barely survived with my DOTs reflecting back at me, it felt like a miracle and I credit our awesome healers for that win.

We went on to get our first Firebrand & Stormcaller HM 8man kill

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(04-25-2012 04:57 PM)Cod Wrote:  

(10-19-2011 12:12 PM)Tibbel Wrote:  Shatter Shot is a useful debuff to keep active on the target at all times. It increases not only our damage, but the damage from the entire ops group. Against a boss (or other important burn target), we should generally lead with Shatter Shot to maximize its up-time; however, if there is a juggernaut or arsenal mercenary also in the group, then they will supplying the armor debuff as part of their normal rotation, so after the initial use of Shatter Shot, it is generally not necessary to keep using it throughout the fight.

Just a quick question about this. I'm pretty sure that I read in the old thread that the armor debuffs stack, even from the same class. So shouldn't we be putting on as many as we can?

Last, if that's the case, do we know what happens if you debuff past 100%?

Armor debuffs no longer stack as of 1.2, or at least there's a limit to how much stacking is allowed. Tibbel can probably clarify this better than I can.

[Steak]

As marksman you have a 35m range for toth and zorn and you can time the jumps for the most part. I don't understand why your having a problem getting the fearful debuff if your tanking them in the correct position. I have not gotten the debuff one time once I learned how it was applied.

I start the fight in then at about 90-92% I move out to 30-35 yards... take the snap shot snipe and stay there till it is off cooldown again. Then I move back into range and snap-shot snipe to continue my rotation.

[Tibbel]

(04-24-2012 12:22 AM)Gronx Wrote:  Relic/adrenal usage


In general, it would be really nice for new gunslingers (like myself) to learn a bit about the correct way to use adrenals/relics/illegal mods, especially with regards to proc effects and skill coefficients.

My main point interest, would be the value of waiting for procs (like burst volley), versus instantly using cooldowns in fights, as well as the "correct" skills to use them with. By "correct skill", I mean the different power contributions to skills, as in, should I use my power adrenal before or after a Quick shot? Are they better used with the 3x Speed Shot combo?

________________________

I would very much appreciate some theory and thoughts about this, as I cannot help but feel that the 1.2 burst volley change created some interesting mechanical possibilities for maxing the gunslinger/sniper.

The increase in ability damage during a temporary power effect is proportional to the ability's coefficient, so maximizing the benefit from a +power adrenal or relic is as simple as using that adrenal or relic so that its active duration matches the time range over which the highest total coefficient is used. (Naturally, there is a bit of iterative feedback that can occur -- we may alter our planned ability sequence when we know a adrenal's cooldown is about to expire, for example, which then changes the expected benefit from that adrenal.)

The coefficient of each of our abilities can be seen in the Coefficient column of the 'Abilities' tab in the Sniper/Gunslinger Spreadsheet.

One interesting nuance is that the damage effect is recalculated for each tick of DoTs and other periodic effects (such as channeled abilities like Series of Shots, or fire-and-forget abilities like Orbital Strike). This means we can, for example:

1. Activate Orbital Strike
2. Shoot a Corrosive Dart
3. And then use an adrenal

...which will allow each of the OS and CD ticks which occur within the adrenal's active duration to benefit from its boost to power (or crit or surge).

Sniper Volley adds another dimension to this idea. If we are in the top energy regen bracket when SV procs (which we generally should be), then we will be spending energy like mad trying to avoid capping at 100%. MM/Eng hybrid snipers frequently use Interrogation Probe for this purpose, and both MM/Eng and pure MM snipers will also use Corrosive Dart and Orbital Strike. (SV's 10% alacrity bonus is also beneficial for activating OS.)

Since Sniper Volley procs often result in more DoTs being applied, a great time to use a relic or adrenal is near the end of SV's duration. I've attached a .xlsx file in which I simulated a 60s MM/Eng rotation and calculated when the best time would be to use an adrenal (15s duration) and a relic (20s duration). In looking at the included graph, note that the value of using an adrenal or relic is at its highest when the duration of the effect includes Orbital Strike. (Because this is a MM/Eng rotation, I've also pinpointed the use of Explosive Probe on the graph.) Smaller local maximums occur around Series of Shots, Ambush, and Explosive Probe.

The question remains, though -- is it better to save the adrenal and relic for Orbital Strike and/or a SV proc, or do we get more net benefit by using them right away and keeping them on cooldown to maximize the number of uses?

Anyone have any thoughts or calculations regarding this?