Post 1.2 heat management and impact on DPS (Arsenal)

[hardpeck]

I would take hit points for survivability over alacrity myself. And have done so since the start.

[Stab]

@ 1% per point with an average pool around 18,000 I fail to see how that is beneficial when there are dps talents available. Sure there are some encounters with a minimum hp requirement for unavoidable damage, but an extra 500-600 health doesn't fix poor spatial awareness. Heat management in its current iteration is not impossible with proper skill utilization and timing, 1.2 doesn't seem to change this rule.

[hardpeck]

(03-23-2012 04:20 AM)Stab Wrote:  @ 1% per point with an average pool around 18,000 I fail to see how that is beneficial when there are dps talents available. Sure there are some encounters with a minimum hp requirement for unavoidable damage, but an extra 500-600 health doesn't fix poor spatial awareness. Heat management in its current iteration is not impossible with proper skill utilization and timing, 1.2 doesn't seem to change this rule.

Considering I run nightmare mode raids at 20.5k in full rakata.

And on the new ops in 1.2 there are abilities that hit very hard, and that extra 2.5k hp can save you.

There's a rock that can hit for 15k in story mode - not to mention hard mode.

Hit points and survivability are not something to be scoffed at in progression raiding.

And alacrity isn't much either to be honest. - 4% off of a 1.5 second cast is .06 seconds which is roughly 1 tracer missile every 25 casts. It also takes .12 seconds off of Unload channel.

In that 4.5 minute parse I posted earlier that would have netted me 2 extra tracer missiles.

But - especially now - It's going to mess up your rotations by not giving your barrage the best chance of proccing right away - and with a 45% proc rate that's very important.

6 seconds on ICD

Tracer -> Barrage proc -> Unload (3s) - Tracer(4.5s) - Tracer(6s) -> Barrage proc with zero alacrity.

And with 4% you are Tracer - Unload(2.88s) - Tracer(4.34s) - Tracer(5.8s) - Tracer(7.26s) -> Barrage Proc.

By adding in that other tracer missile you will miss out on 1.26 seconds where you could have gotten a barrage proc.

In order to make alacrity worth it at all you would need 33.3333333%

Which would make you get a rotation like Unload(2s) - Tracer(3s) - tracer(4s) - Tracer(5s) - Tracer(6s) - barrage proc.

And you could not keep a heat efficient rotation like that. You would work up your heat way too much. Not to mention that you would be giving up way too many other stats to get that much alacrity and you would end up losing DPS.

It's the same in live currently - though not as big of an impact because of barrage lower proc rate.

Alacrity is a DPS loss, not a gain.

[Stab]

Where exactly are you getting 12% health from in talents? At 20.5K health in full rakata you are at maximum going to get 1025 Health with both Custom Enviro Suit and Integrated Cardio Package. I am assuming this is your health after having one or both of these talents, therefore your gain is even less. In optimal damage armorings(included in current rakata pieces) and enhancements I am sitting on about 18.5k so that leads me to believe you took high endurance pieces and/or you are using inappropriate enhancements.

I play a damage class, I build to optimize damage personally and make my best effort at avoiding avoidable damage. A little extra alacrity for 2% or 3% health is my choice any day of the week because it is a damage relevant stat.

I was of the opinion alacrity was more hurt than help before, but with the way cast times and projectile speeds work, it doesn't make any sense to lose those extra rapid shots or additional damaging abilities at the expense of a little health, possibly throwing off an ICD that might not have lined up correctly to begin with, or another terciary stat that is deep in diminishing returns.

[hardpeck]

(03-23-2012 07:13 AM)Stab Wrote:  Where exactly are you getting 12% health from in talents? At 20.5K health in full rakata you are at maximum going to get 1025 Health with both Custom Enviro Suit and Integrated Cardio Package. I am assuming this is your health after having one or both of these talents, therefore your gain is even less. In optimal damage armorings(included in current rakata pieces) and enhancements I am sitting on about 18.5k so that leads me to believe you took high endurance pieces and/or you are using inappropriate enhancements.

I play a damage class, I build to optimize damage personally and make my best effort at avoiding avoidable damage. A little extra alacrity for 2% or 3% health is my choice any day of the week because it is a damage relevant stat.

I was of the opinion alacrity was more hurt than help before, but with the way cast times and projectile speeds work, it doesn't make any sense to lose those extra rapid shots or additional damaging abilities at the expense of a little health, possibly throwing off an ICD that might not have lined up correctly to begin with, or another terciary stat that is deep in diminishing returns.

I am currently Sitting at ~1900 Aim, 33% crit, 78% surge on Live servers. I can guarantee you that I am not "stacking" endurance - I am using columi enhancements in a lot of my rakata gear in order to maximize my DPS stats.

You take that 4% alacrity though. Unload with Barrage procs is by far our highest DPS ability - not to mention our most heat efficient - and I don't plan on giving up on any proc chances and lose DPS because I want .04 seconds off the cast time of a 1.5 second ability.

Again - alacrity - no matter how much you think it's a gain - is a DPS loss when you do the math. So yes - I want more DPS and more hit points.

There is a reason I am one of the top DPS players in my guild - and my guild is a top worldwide guild. We are on the PTR testing - I came here to post some results but people seem to be stuck in their ways and refuse to even accept simple math proving that alacrity is a DPS loss. This is math my 12 year old nephew could do too - it's not like i'm posting up high end calculus formulas here.

Good day Sith warriors, I will continue my discussion with the other few mercenaries in top guilds that I communicate with already and leave you guys to your own.

[Allah]

(03-23-2012 07:40 AM)hardpeck Wrote:  

(03-23-2012 07:13 AM)Stab Wrote:  Where exactly are you getting 12% health from in talents? At 20.5K health in full rakata you are at maximum going to get 1025 Health with both Custom Enviro Suit and Integrated Cardio Package. I am assuming this is your health after having one or both of these talents, therefore your gain is even less. In optimal damage armorings(included in current rakata pieces) and enhancements I am sitting on about 18.5k so that leads me to believe you took high endurance pieces and/or you are using inappropriate enhancements.

I play a damage class, I build to optimize damage personally and make my best effort at avoiding avoidable damage. A little extra alacrity for 2% or 3% health is my choice any day of the week because it is a damage relevant stat.

I was of the opinion alacrity was more hurt than help before, but with the way cast times and projectile speeds work, it doesn't make any sense to lose those extra rapid shots or additional damaging abilities at the expense of a little health, possibly throwing off an ICD that might not have lined up correctly to begin with, or another terciary stat that is deep in diminishing returns.

I am currently Sitting at ~1900 Aim, 33% crit, 78% surge on Live servers. I can guarantee you that I am not "stacking" endurance - I am using columi enhancements in a lot of my rakata gear in order to maximize my DPS stats.

You take that 4% alacrity though. Unload with Barrage procs is by far our highest DPS ability - not to mention our most heat efficient - and I don't plan on giving up on any proc chances and lose DPS because I want .04 seconds off the cast time of a 1.5 second ability.

Again - alacrity - no matter how much you think it's a gain - is a DPS loss when you do the math. So yes - I want more DPS and more hit points.

There is a reason I am one of the top DPS players in my guild - and my guild is a top worldwide guild. We are on the PTR testing - I came here to post some results but people seem to be stuck in their ways and refuse to even accept simple math proving that alacrity is a DPS loss. This is math my 12 year old nephew could do too - it's not like i'm posting up high end calculus formulas here.

Good day Sith warriors, I will continue my discussion with the other few mercenaries in top guilds that I communicate with already and leave you guys to your own.

The problem is, what happens when the perfectly aligned tracer doesnt proc an unload. Well the person potentially stacking alacrity could be doing higher dps because he is casting much faster. Im in stab's guild and were a former world ranked wow raiding guild with a few world first and many US top5 kills, so you cant play the my guild is amazing card with us, it doesnt work.

For reference, we do use alacrity and from what we can tell it is a dps increase and its not all about just picking up the 4% haste, its about grabbing it elsewhere too and not going so deep into surge DR.

Stats on live with the 4 class buffs and biochem flask
2124 aim
19.5k hp
Tech dropdown
857.4 bonus damage
105.35 accuracy
39.49 crit
70.98% crit dmg
15.58% haste(with critical reactions up)

[Gorlough]

Guys, please stick to the topic.Nobody cares in what guild who is and what's their progress. This is about raw numbers, for gods sake.
Alacrity and its usefulness for DPS is already discussed elsewhere.

The topic still stays: does the new proc chance on Barrage change our heat management in our favor and, in return, does this increase our DPS?

[Dastey]

(03-23-2012 06:48 PM)Gorlough Wrote:  Guys, please stick to the topic.Nobody cares in what guild who is and what's their progress. This is about raw numbers, for gods sake.
Alacrity and its usefulness for DPS is already discussed elsewhere.

The topic still stays: does the new proc chance on Barrage change our heat management in our favor and, in return, does this increase our DPS?

Whether you want it or not alacrity have a huge impact on the heat generation of Barrage in next patch because of the cast times of the current abilities. So it is totally relevant to discuss the scenario or whether 0% alacrity is better than 4% for instance.

[Phaser]

Can't make my own threads so I suppose my post fits best here.

What is the reasoning behind the DFA nerf? One of our most fun and satisfying abilities is now going to be useless. Considering it is a channeled ability that can be interrupted. Not to mention it puts a red circle on the ground that people can avoid for PVP. In PVE it will knockback mobs out of the radius making them oor for the final 2 waves.

This is nothing but an unneccesary slap in the face for BH. It's not even a huge part of our damage...is bioware trying to make the game unfun to play?

Imo the range needs to be 10m and a knockdown affect should be added for pvp...that's something mercenaries could actually use. Our 4 sec stun doesnt even persist through damage. The only thing we can do in PVP is DPS. And yes, we are decent at it, but hold nothing over Operative, Sorcerer dps who have FAR more interactive/ powerful abilities.

[Allah]

(03-24-2012 06:24 AM)Phaser Wrote:  Can't make my own threads so I suppose my post fits best here.

What is the reasoning behind the DFA nerf? One of our most fun and satisfying abilities is now going to be useless. Considering it is a channeled ability that can be interrupted. Not to mention it puts a red circle on the ground that people can avoid for PVP. In PVE it will knockback mobs out of the radius making them oor for the final 2 waves.

This is nothing but an unneccesary slap in the face for BH. It's not even a huge part of our damage...is bioware trying to make the game unfun to play?

Imo the range needs to be 10m and a knockdown affect should be added for pvp...that's something mercenaries could actually use. Our 4 sec stun doesnt even persist through damage. The only thing we can do in PVP is DPS. And yes, we are decent at it, but hold nothing over Operative, Sorcerer dps who have FAR more interactive/ powerful abilities.

It just needs to be a knockdown effect, not knockback and it will be fine. Currently, ranged classes vastly out aoe melee which is perplexing so nerfing aoe is fine with me really, but having DFA knock enemies out of its own aoe is just dumb mechanics.