1.2 notes discussion [Guardian/Jugg Tank]

[Diomed]

To get this started here are the updates pertinent to us for easy reference.
General -Jedi Knight
Awe no longer costs Focus to activate.
Dispatch can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).
Force Kick no longer costs Focus to activate.
Master Strike can no longer be interrupted.

Vigilance
Commanding Awe is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree. It increases the Guardian's damage reduction while Focused Defense is active.
Single Saber Mastery is no longer restricted to certain stances.
Stagger is now located in Tier 1 of the Vigilance skill tree.
Sundering Throw is now located in Tier 6 of the Vigilance skill tree.
Zen Strike now generates 2 points of Focus when it is triggered.

Defense
Blade Barrier is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree.
Blade Storm no longer consumes stacks of Courage while the Momentum buff is active.
Command no longer reduces the cooldown of Challenging Call and is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree.
Dust Storm is now a 3-point skill that provides the same overall effect.
Guardian Slash now generates 50% additional threat.
Momentum is now a 2-point skill that provides the same overall effect.
Pacification is now a 1-point skill with a slightly reduced overall effect.
Shield Specialization is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree.
Stasis Mastery is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree.

Focus (Guardian)
Felling Blow is now a 3-point skill with the same overall effect. The effect now lasts 20 seconds (up from 15).
Force Exhaustion's cooldown has been reduced to 18 seconds. Its overall effect is unchanged.
Gravity now specifically affects Freezing Force and Force Exhaustion.
Inner Focus has been redesigned. It now requires 2 points in Singularity and causes Combat Focus to immediately grant 2 stacks of Singularity per point.
Master Focus now increases the damage of Master Strike instead of affecting Force Stasis.
Singularity's buff effects now last 20 seconds (up from 15).
Swelling Winds is now located in Tier 1 of the Focus skill tree. It increases the damage dealt by Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash and reduces the cooldown of Force Sweep.
Through Peace, a new 2-point skill located in Tier 6, has been added. It reduces the initial activation cost of Focused Defense by 1 Focus per point.
Unwavering Focus has been removed from the game.
Zealous Leap now immobilizes the target for 1 second.
Zephyr has been replaced by Zephyrean Slash, which allows Slash critical hits to have a chance to refund 2 points of Focus while the Guardian is in Shii-Cho Form.


Is 14/27 dead? It looks like its current form is as Commanding awe now requires a threat dump to get any defensive benefit. I'm very curious what others are going to be thinking of for builds, or are we all going back to Immortal? Maybe I don't have enough data yet to make that call it sure appears that way.

EDIT 1: Forgot the most important patch note of the day

The diminishing return formula for several stats (including expertise) has been adjusted.

[Antarius]

Translated notes for those of us used to the SW ability names.

General
Disruption no longer costs Rage to activate.
Intimidating Roar no longer costs Rage to activate.
Ravage can no longer be interrupted.
Vicious Throw can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).

Due to changes to the Juggernaut skill trees, Juggernauts have had their skill points refunded.
Added Crash, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Charge to stun the target for 2 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds.
Added Enraged Defense, a new ability that allows the Juggernaut to spend Rage to lower threat. While active, one point of Rage is spent each time damage is taken to heal the Juggernaut for a small amount. This ability is usable while stunned and is not limited by the global cooldown.

Vengeance
Deafening Defense is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree. It now increases the Juggernaut's damage reduction while Enraged Defense is active.
Rampage now generates 2 points of Rage when it is triggered.
Single Saber Mastery is no longer restricted to certain stances.
Stagger is now located in Tier 1 of the Vengeance skill tree.
Sundering Throw is now located in Tier 6 of the Vengeance skill tree.

Immortal
Battle Cry is now a 2-point skill that provides the same overall effect.
Crushing Blow now generates 50% additional threat.
Force Grip is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree.
Force Scream no longer consumes stacks of Revenge while the Battle Cry buff is active.
Heavy Handed is now a 1-point skill with a slightly reduced overall effect.
Quake is now a 3-point skill that provides the same overall effect.
Shield Specialization is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree.
Sonic Barrier is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree.
Thrown Gauntlet no longer reduces the cooldown of Threatening Scream and is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree.

Rage (Juggernaut)
Decimate is now located in Tier 1 of the Rage skill tree. It increases the damage dealt by Smash and Sweeping Slash and reduces the cooldown of Smash.
Dominate is now a 3-point skill with the same overall effect. The effect now lasts 20 seconds (up from 15).
Force Alacrity has been replaced by Overpower, which allows Vicious Slash critical hits to have a chance to refund 2 points of Rage while the Juggernaut is in Shii-Cho Form.
Force Crush's cooldown has been reduced to 18 seconds. Its overall effect is unchanged.
Gravity now specifically affects Chilling Scream and Force Crush.
Obliterate now immobilizes the target for 1 second.
Ravager now increases the damage of Ravage instead of affecting Force Choke.
Relentless Fury has been replaced by Empowering Rage. It requires 2 points in Shockwave and causes Enrage to immediately grant 2 stacks of Shockwave per point.
Shockwave's buff effects now last 20 seconds (up from 15).
Through Passion, a new 2-point skill located in Tier 6, has been added. It reduces the initial activation cost of Enraged Defense by 1 Rage per point.
Unbreakable Rage has been removed from the game.

[Antarius]

(03-18-2012 12:32 AM)Diomed Wrote:  Is 14/27 dead? It looks like its current form is as Commanding awe now requires a threat dump to get any defensive benefit. I'm very curious what others are going to be thinking of for builds, or are we all going back to Immortal? Maybe I don't have enough data yet to make that call it sure appears that way.

Right, it wouldn't be 14/27 anymore.

With sonic barrier AND deafening defense both moving down a tier (or 2), though, it open up the possibility of a 17/24 spec though, which would function similarly to the old 14/27, except it would perform even better heavy handed would be an extremely strong 15th talent now that it is only 1 point.

And the wording on the deafening defense note isn't crystal clear, it could mean it now ALSO increases dmg reduction during enraged defense in addition to it's previous 2 abilities, which would still make it even more powerful than before or it could mean that both previous abilities are replaced by the new enraged defense dmg reduction cooldown, which would make it useless. But then that also depends on the exact mechanics of the new enraged defense, how much of a threat dump it is... how much it heals for etc etc.

I wonder if with the 2 second stun added to force charge... if it will still function as an interrupt against stun immune mobs, I hope so.

[BigRedJedi]

Some observations:

- As mentioned above, 14/27 looks like it is effectively dead, but a viable hybrid (17/24) looks like a definite possibility.

- If Deafening Defense/Commanding Awe adds the new effect to its previous effects, it is a very nice change; if, however, it replaces those effects, it is an unpleasant change.

- Sweep/Smash-Bomber Focus Sentinels/Marauders just constructed additional pylons... Getting Swelling Winds/Decimate shifted into the shared tree is a huge upgrade.

- Caveat to that, it makes the old 31/10/0 Guardian/Juggernaut Defense-heavy build invalid; perhaps a new 31/7/3 will be in order, picking up the much-improved Single-Saber Mastery (no longer restricted to certain stances)?

- Changes to class-specific stuns and interrupts (all around, not just Knights/Warriors) seem like a very good change.

- With Master Strike/Ravage now uninterruptible, will we be able to trigger OGCD abilities now, without stopping the cast?

- We actually got a (small) self-heal?!... With a threat dump... 0.o ... Well, guess there are tradeoffs for everything, right?

Just my 2 EC,
-BRJ

[Dain]

Leveled a warrior to 10 on PTS so I could check out the new trees and abilities, or at least the tooltips for them.

In response to BigRedJedi's "If Deafening Defense/Commanding Awe adds the new effect to its previous effects, it is a very nice change; if, however, it replaces those effects, it is an unpleasant change." I decided to post some tooltips.

Deafening Defense Talent Tier 5 Vengeance: Reduces all damage taken by 2% at all times and by an additional 7.5% while Enraged Defense is active. Additionally reduces the cooldown of Intimidating Roar by 7.5 seconds. (Thats for the first point so I assume 4% flat damage reduction with 15% more while Enraged Defense is up.)

Enraged Defense Lvl 38 Juggernaut Ability: Rage 4, cooldown 45 seconds, Immediately reduces threat by a moderate amount. For 10 seconds, taking damage spends 1 rage point to heal you for 3% of your maximum health and reduce threat by a low amount. This effect cannot occur more than once every second. This ability can be used while stunned or otherwise controlled.

Seems like it might be useful as long as you have a taunt handy when you use it. I'm not an expert but it seems to me that the hybrid would as good or better than before. Huddle is gone but the change to Deafening Defense might make up for it if the threat reduction isn't too much of a problem. 18/23 could have Force Grip, Sonic Barrier, Impale and Deafening Defense. It also puts Revenge in reach of the hybrid build. I've only briefly played the hybrid because I immediately felt rage starved so that might be an option for me to try.

[Antarius]

(03-19-2012 03:23 AM)Dain Wrote:  Leveled a warrior to 10 on PTS so I could check out the new trees and abilities, or at least the tooltips for them.

Thanks a ton for the info

Yea, 18/23 looks really promising.

[Dain]

I've also been looking at the implications for the full Immortal build and on the plus side it looks like it will be much easier to get Battle Cry and Quake in a 31 point build without sacrificing anything important for PVE (the only points not taken are Thrown Gauntlet, Unleashed and Intimidation). I think that just comes from Heavy Handed only taking 1 point down from 3.

Single Target threat should be up with 50% increase to Crushing Blow threat. AOE changes are Heavy Handed is 8% to Backhand, Sweeping Slash, and Smash. Decimate is 20% to Sweeping Slash and Smash and lowers cooldown of Smash by 1.5 sec per point. So before we spent 6 points to get 45% to Smash and 15% to Sweeping Slash. In 1.2, for 3 points, you get 28% to both with the same cooldown reduction on Smash. I hope that's and overall increase in AOE threat.

[Antarius]

(03-19-2012 04:16 AM)Dain Wrote:  I hope that's and overall increase in AOE threat.

Don't forget about the 6% increase in dmg from single saber mastery also helping aoe threat

[dregg]

(03-19-2012 05:50 AM)Antarius Wrote:  

(03-19-2012 04:16 AM)Dain Wrote:  I hope that's and overall increase in AOE threat.

Don't forget about the 6% increase in dmg from single saber mastery also helping aoe threat

It doesn't affect kinetic damage AFAIK so it wouldn't improve smash.

[BigRedJedi]

Thank you very much for the tooltip info, Dain! (Silly work schedule has been cutting into all of my play time, let alone the chance to get on the PTS...)

Seems like a good change on Deafening Defense/Commanding Awe, then.

On the other hand, a change that I overlooked in my excitement of blitzing through the patch notes:

PTS 1.2 Notes Wrote:Added Crash/Forceclap, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Charge/Force Leap to stun the target for 2 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds.

This change, while useful for most PvE circumstances (though I'm curious if it would make these abilities fail to interrupt on stun-immune Elites/Bosses) seems painfully problematic for PvP. Giving our primary (non-Focus builds: only) gap-closer an automatic Resolve-building component seems like a terrible idea, one that will make non-Marauder/Sentinels practically non-existent in organized teams. Having the option (for a single talent point) to add this for PvE was great... Being forced to have it, as a Warrior/Guardian, seems like a poorly thought-out change, particularly since Marauders/Sentinels get to retain the original versions of the ability.

The change feels like BW looked at talent distributions and asked themselves "What ability could we give to Warriors/Guardians that most builds don't currently take, without breaking the rest of the trees and we can give it to them for free, because it will be a nice gift?!"... Without looking at the big picture of both PvE and PvP...

On the flip-side, the change so that Thrown Gauntlet/Command no longer reduce the CD's on Threatening Scream/Challenging Call, would seem to be a PvP-related change, as I can't imagine that they looked at Juggernaut/Guardian AoE-tanking and said to themselves, "Gee, these guys are doing too good a job at this..." Again, it looks, on paper, like a change that only was looked at from a single perspective, rather than looking at the game as a whole.

-BRJ