Guardian/Juggernaut - Focus/Rage DPS (1.1.5)

[Coriolis]

Without a dps meter or a spreadsheet there's no way to know what damage you are doing in pve (in pvp we have a dps meters of a sort). Anyone can claim that anything is true, and they are most likely completely wrong, math doesn't care about feelings unfortunately. So yes, you need to look at spreadsheets for now, until the combat logs come out, and probably even then. And both dps specs are pretty close in pve, close enough that it shouldn't matter which one you play in pve.

In pvp, they are rather different, my best as vengeance was somewhere around ~320K in a pvp match, whereas my top as rage is 538k, and I usually get ~400k+ in an even game. The reason is basically because of aoe damage, and because rage dps is more limited by fairly long cooldowns (which is better when you have alot of interruptions in your dps, as you do in pvp unlike in pve). The advantage of vengeance is that it's somewhat better defensively, but not enough really.

Honestly I didn't even notice taking the +stack of armor debuff talent over the +damage talent... that's just silly. Non-tanks have armor that varies between ~20-27% depending on class, reducing that by an extra 4% is less then 1% extra damage, whereas the single-saber mastery is 2% extra damage. And that's before you consider all the other problems - many times you'll be hitting people other then the ones you sundered (especially with aoe obviously), the fact that you're already penetrating 20% of their armor from being in shii-cho with rage spec and so on. That's just a mistake.

[Pander Beers]

(03-17-2012 01:41 AM)Coriolis Wrote:  Honestly I didn't even notice taking the +stack of armor debuff talent over the +damage talent... that's just silly. Non-tanks have armor that varies between ~20-27% depending on class, reducing that by an extra 4% is less then 1% extra damage, whereas the single-saber mastery is 2% extra damage. And that's before you consider all the other problems - many times you'll be hitting people other then the ones you sundered (especially with aoe obviously), the fact that you're already penetrating 20% of their armor from being in shii-cho with rage spec and so on. That's just a mistake.

Even if you put 3 points into the increased melee damage in Shii-cho/Shien form talen, then you are still only getting 6% increased MELEE damage. Compare that to faster armor reduction that benefits not only you, but all of your allies who are attacking that target.

Also, the "feeling" business I was talking about earlier was only half serious. I understand the value in spreadsheets for new PvP'ers and those who are seeking validation for their builds, however I warn against using DPS spreedsheets as the end-all for deciding what build you will use. Experienced PvP'ers don't use spreadsheets -> take Taugrim for example, all of the builds he uses he validates based on how well he does in game. For different players, different builds will perform differently regards of "optimized DPS."

[Pander Beers]

http://www.swtor.com/test-center/patchnotes

Jedi Knight - General
Awe no longer costs Focus to activate.
Dispatch can now be used on targets at or below 30% of maximum health (up from 20%).
Force Kick no longer costs Focus to activate.
Master Strike can no longer be interrupted.


Guardian
Due to changes to the Guardian skill trees, Guardians have had their skill points refunded.
Added Forceclap, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Leap to stun the target for 2 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds.
Added Focused Defense, a new ability that allows the Guardian to spend Focus to lower threat. While active, one point of Focus is spent each time damage is taken to heal the Guardian for a small amount. This ability is usable while stunned and is not limited by the global cooldown.

Vigilance
Commanding Awe is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree. It increases the Guardian's damage reduction while Focused Defense is active.
Single Saber Mastery is no longer restricted to certain stances.
Stagger is now located in Tier 1 of the Vigilance skill tree.
Sundering Throw is now located in Tier 6 of the Vigilance skill tree.
Zen Strike now generates 2 points of Focus when it is triggered.

Defense
Blade Barrier is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree.
Blade Storm no longer consumes stacks of Courage while the Momentum buff is active.
Command no longer reduces the cooldown of Challenging Call and is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree.
Dust Storm is now a 3-point skill that provides the same overall effect.
Guardian Slash now generates 50% additional threat.
Momentum is now a 2-point skill that provides the same overall effect.
Pacification is now a 1-point skill with a slightly reduced overall effect.
Shield Specialization is now located in Tier 5 of the skill tree.
Stasis Mastery is now located in Tier 4 of the skill tree.

Focus (Guardian)
Felling Blow is now a 3-point skill with the same overall effect. The effect now lasts 20 seconds (up from 15).
Force Exhaustion's cooldown has been reduced to 18 seconds. Its overall effect is unchanged.
Gravity now specifically affects Freezing Force and Force Exhaustion.
Inner Focus has been redesigned. It now requires 2 points in Singularity and causes Combat Focus to immediately grant 2 stacks of Singularity per point.
Master Focus now increases the damage of Master Strike instead of affecting Force Stasis.
Singularity's buff effects now last 20 seconds (up from 15).
Swelling Winds is now located in Tier 1 of the Focus skill tree. It increases the damage dealt by Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash and reduces the cooldown of Force Sweep.
Through Peace, a new 2-point skill located in Tier 6, has been added. It reduces the initial activation cost of Focused Defense by 1 Focus per point. -- Need to take a longer look at Focused Defense, I guess. At first glance I don't think I want it, but it seems to have a serious connection to the Focus tree if it's getting Tier 6 status.
Unwavering Focus has been removed from the game. -- good, garbage waste of a point
Zealous Leap now immobilizes the target for 1 second. - trolololololol
Zephyr has been replaced by Zephyrean Slash, which allows Slash critical hits to have a chance to refund 2 points of Focus while the Guardian is in Shii-Cho Form. -- eww, don't use slash anyways.

Oh wow. I'm going to spend a lot of time working on this guide when 1.2 hits
I'll see what work I can do in advance. Come back and see the new changes!

[Pander Beers]

So after some more study, it looks like we're getting a notable nerf. In fact, it's coming at cost to buff the Focus DPS Sentinel and provide the Sentinels a 3rd viable DPS tree (Focus wasn't worth it before for them, but now it is).

So, le sigh - Depending on what the actual numbers are when the patch hits, we'll see how it turns out. I'm going to re-do parts of the guide and I'll post when it's updated.

[skorpion]

It seems to me that Rage Juggs got nerfed to the point that Rage Marauders are now doing more damage.
Do you think is it worth re-rolling for a marauder if you want to be using rage tree?

[Pander Beers]

(03-20-2012 10:37 PM)skorpion Wrote:  It seems to me that Rage Juggs got nerfed to the point that Rage Marauders are now doing more damage.
Do you think is it worth re-rolling for a marauder if you want to be using rage tree?

My fellow Guardian/Juggernaut... I have been thinking about that a lot over the last day or two. In fact, I already rolled my fat, pink Twi'lek that will be a Sentinel later. I just haven't leveled him yet.

I'm torn between re-rolling to Sentinel to play the DPS Spec I love the most, Focus/Rage... and staying Guardian/Juggernaut to play the class I love the most. I'm afraid that the damage nerf is going to spoil my romance I've had in PvP for the past three months.

Let me say that I'm going to stay and see how the nerfs finalize. Even then, I'm going to give an honest look at the Guardian DPS going forward. Give me a week or so after 1.2 hits, and I'll have updates for the guide with my opinion moving forward.

My test server patch notes opinion:
Guardian/Juggernaut Focus/Rage nerfed in favor of giving Sentinel/Maurader a 3rd viable DPS spec. They had to give Sentinel/Maurader Swelling Winds or else they would be useless, and as a part of the reorganization of the Focus/Rage tree, we lost a lot of our favorite abilities such as Zephyr and Sundering Throw (sorry Juggs, I don't know the name for those, but it's the cooldown reduction and armor debuff stacking on your saber throw). Losing those + the Swelling Winds nerf = devastating to us, but they aren't changes that the Sentinel/Maurader would feel anyways. For them, they're getting straight buffs across the board.

le sigh

[Pander Beers]

"It’ll be interesting to see what happens to Juggs and Guardians. With the resource system now, focus/rage specced JG/SJ will be able to run the tanking stance without getting focus starved, and thus have both the burst and utility. Also, tanks, whether hybrid or not, have their DPS increased, while Vigilance/Vengeance DPS spec isn’t changed much."

From Taugrim.com's last blog post comments.
http://taugrim.com/2012/03/16/the-skinny.../#comments

I think that's an interesting view, because although I am notably against using Soresu Form all the time, maybe that will be the way to go for us now. I know that for Ranked WZ's, I will probably be in Soresu to be guarding healers and just accept the DPS nerf that comes with it. We'll see!

[skorpion]

I'm currently leveling a marauder, in case the patch notes go like that in release.
I've been enjoying juggernaut but let's be frank:
- no more sundering throw (goes to vengeance)
- longer cooldown on everything, unlike marauder
- decimate 10% nerf to us, 20% buff to marauder
- stupid stun on force leap that is the nail on the coffin.
The thing is the 1.2 patch note offer no incentive going hybrid rage/somthing in terms of dps..
I guess I have to learn to love marauder with lot more cds to manage :/

[Pander Beers]

(03-22-2012 01:46 AM)skorpion Wrote:  I'm currently leveling a marauder, in case the patch notes go like that in release.
I've been enjoying juggernaut but let's be frank:
- no more sundering throw (goes to vengeance)
- longer cooldown on everything, unlike marauder
- decimate 10% nerf to us, 20% buff to marauder
- stupid stun on force leap that is the nail on the coffin.
The thing is the 1.2 patch note offer no incentive going hybrid rage/somthing in terms of dps..
I guess I have to learn to love marauder with lot more cds to manage :/

I would level your marauder and keep him chambered until you feel out the 1.2 Juggernaut and let me get a guide up for it. I am working on ranked WZ strats with my guild and putting my Guardian in a place that I will be comfortable with for PvP, however as a solo queue player, I'm not sure it will be viable.

I agree with all of your points and QQ to my guildies on an hourly basis about it

[Skroting]

We're getting significantly nerfed? O.o

According to the patchnotes I've read, theres no significance to any nerf is there?
I don't understand how you can go from the wreckingball you are jeanne, to becoming unviable from the changes that are coming in 1.2, where are these nerfs I'm not seeing? :O

Edit: Just a thought, now that the 3sec cooldown is removed from shii-cho form, wouldn't it be better to simply use soresu? that way you could hold guard up at all times, and without the lowered cooldown, do you really need that much focus generation?

Not 50 yet on my guardian, so the little experience i have isn't all that relevant, but in my case i have yet to "need" combat focus, because my focus generation has outdone my need for it, so with soresu up i might utilize combat focus a bit more aswell (and with the 2 free singularity stacks that provides, i can't see how that's a bad thing : p)

When i think about the damage loss from not having the 20% armor reduction i shii-cho, i can't say it matters "that much" since the abilities this specc is pretty much built arround is still force powers all of them, no? Zealous leap still does mellee damage, but that's the only real damage i do as weapon damage no?

Just a few thoughts on how to play a guardian in the patch 1.2, and as a final note, the one i believe to be the best jugger on my server has never played focus build with shii-cho yet topped damage in pretty much every single match i've met him/her : p