Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion

[Jarfi]

(06-27-2012 02:50 AM)Archie Wrote:  Which combination ist bis now?

PvP Battlemaster relic / matrix cube

PvP Battlemaster relic / relic or dark radiance

I'd say matrix cube / Campaign Relic is BIS until you get to the point to consider switching the Matrix for a War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages (unless you're able to obtain the Denova Campaign version)
Plz note that the Matrix link is for the pre1.3 version..

[Lhokz]

Hi everyone,

I'm just going to try as good as possible to classify the most important trinkets for us for patch 1.3. I'm supposing here that Power and Crit are "properly balancing" like Kaedis said it, so 1 crit = 1 power = 1 DPS (not a real point of DPS, it's just to make it easier). Thus, if 1 willpower is 10% better than crit, we should have 1 willpower = 1.1 DPS. I'm also taking a 120 seconds period corresponding to the CD of the relic of boundless ages. Everything below is calculated without augments.

I don't have the exact scaling values, but I'm supposing that 1 surge rating equals a half crit rating.


PvP

Champion Relic of Boundless Ages (can be can be bought for 11,300 credits at the Recruit PvP Gear seller or be found in the new 1.3 PvP quest)
34 endu / 48 expertise rating / 97 power
97*120 = 11640 DPS

Champion Relic of Forbidden Secrets (can be can be bought for 11,300 credits at the Recruit PvP Gear seller or be found in the new 1.3 PvP quest)
34 endu / 48 expertise rating / 57 crit rating / 57 surge rating
(57 + 57*0.5 )*120 = 10260 DPS

Battle master Relic of Boundless Ages (can be bought for 550 warzone commendations)
37endu / 51 expertise rating / 103 power
103*120 = 12360 DPS

Battle master Relic of Forbidden Secrets (can be bought for 550 warzone commendations)
37 endu / 51 expertise rating / 61 crit rating / 61 surge rating
(61 + 61*0.5 )*120 = 10980 DPS

War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages (can be bought for 1250 ranked warzone commendations and 200 warzone commendations)
41 endu / 57 expertise rating / 113 power
113*120 = 13560 DPS


PvE

Rakata Relic of Boundless Ages (craft Artifice)
77 endu / 290 power during 30 seconds
290*30 = 8700 DPS (should be a little bit more due to the additional buff of the Adrenal triggered with the relic)

Campaign Relic of Boundless Ages (200 daily commendations / can be dropped on the Nightmare Pilgrim and also craft with if you learn the patern with the item)
84 endu / 315 power during 30 seconds
315*30 = 9450 DPS (should be a little bit more due to the additional buff of the Adrenal triggered with the relic)

Matrix Cube M7-R3
56 endu / 66 willpower / 27 crit rating
(66*1.1 + 27)*120 = 11952 DPS


PvP/PvE

Drop at Karagga's Palace HM or NM / can be also bought for 550 warzone commendations but with less endurance and more expertise rating:
Plasma Burst Device
77 endu / 30% chance to hit 168 elemental dmg with a 4,5s ICD
Dark Energy Surge
77 endu / 30% chance to hit 168 internal dmg with a 4,5s ICD

Can be bought for 200 daily commendations or for 1250 ranked warzone commendations and 200 warzone commendations:
Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance
84endu / 30% chance to hit 184 internal dmg with a 4,5s ICD
Campaign Relic of Elemental Transcendance
84endu / 30% chance to hit 184 elemental dmg with a 4,5s ICD

Now, about all those proc relics, I d'ont really know how to find their DPS in comparison of the "false DPS point" used in this post with willpower/power/crit. However, assuming that a DPS sorcerer is making a lot of dmg per second (dots/channeling), we can presume that 30% chance to hit is enough to proc every ~ 6s with a 4,5s ICD. Thus, we can have:
(120/6)*168 = 3360 real point of DPS
(120/6)*184 = 3680 real point of DPS


At the end, I think that the best combination is to have double War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages (113 power alltime).

I may be wrong in some numbers, but the main idea here is to reference some of the best trinkets atm.

[foster]

I think the main question after 1.3 is: Which is better relic for Pvp DPS Sage(1/12/28)?
Boundless Ages(+113 power) or Kinetic Tempest(30%, 246 dmg every 4,5 sec)?
Because of sharing CD, combination of two Kinetic Tempest is useless. So first will be Bundless Ages, but which one to choose as second relic?
If we agree, that every 6 sec. relic proc, and 113 power mean add 28 dmg to every attack(don't know exactly, pls. correct it), according my calculation, increasing 28 dmg mean incerasing overal dmg. by 3%(11 times tel. throw, 44 ticks, 1000 dmg default or 1028 dmg with power relic). But when using proc relic, overal dmg increasing by 6% (every 10th tick will relic proc. adding aditional 248 dmg).
I've created simple xls. file: http://lacomp.sk/swtor/relics_1.3.xlsx.
It looks proc relic is better then power relic, but pls. correct me If I'm wrong.

[Kaedis]

Quote:I'm just going to try as good as possible to classify the most important trinkets for us for patch 1.3. I'm supposing here that Power and Crit are "properly balancing" like Kaedis said it, so 1 crit = 1 power = 1 DPS (not a real point of DPS, it's just to make it easier). Thus, if 1 willpower is 10% better than crit, we should have 1 willpower = 1.1 DPS. I'm also taking a 120 seconds period corresponding to the CD of the relic of boundless ages. Everything below is calculated without augments.

I don't have the exact scaling values, but I'm supposing that 1 surge rating equals a half crit rating.

These are reasonably good estimates to make. Actually, I would call it "EP", not "DPS", as DPS is defined. EP means Equivalence Points, and has been used for many years as a term for the relative power of items in MMOs, usually defined as providing equivalent benefit to that amount of some common baseline non-DRing stat. It WoW, this was usually Attack Power, or sometimes Agility (for Hunters and Rogues), which was usually called AEP instead (agility equivalence points). In SWTOR, it makes sense to compare it to Power, as Power is the only stat with no intrinsic DR curve. We can either call this PEP (lol) or simply EP.

Anyhoo, assuming a roughly equivalence in weight between Power and Crit (and between Alacrity and Surge) is justified, as players looking to min/max should be focusing on that first. Surge floats between 0.3 and 0.5 (even when properly balanced against Alacrity) across the 3 currently used specs, with an average weight of roughly 0.4.

However, when calculating EP, it's probably best to simply average the effective input from the use relics. Instead of multiplying the EP of everything by 120, multiply the calculated EP of the use effect by the duration divided by the cooldown (in the case of these relics, multiply by 1/4). This prevents abnormally large scaling, and gives a more practical view of the item's contribution (particularly with the definition of EP above).

Once you've calculated EP, it's actually relatively simple to convert to "real" DPS. SimC is showing an average of about 0.42 DPS per 1 Power across the various (currently used) specs. Simply multiply the calculated EP by 0.42 to get the equivalent "real" DPS (or alternatively multiply the real DPS from the proc relics by 2.381 to convert to EP). However, we should probably also note the Energy/Kinetic versions of the proc relic. Remember that we can assume only a 20% armor reduction environment now, so the Energy/Kinetic relic will deal 69.88% of expected damage due to the 30.12% damage reduction from armor (specifically, 80% of normal boss armor). This means they deal 171.9 damage per procs, compared to the 184 from the Elemental/Internal versions, and are therefore universally inferior. Good to note this so people have a reference for it.

[prim]

So Now that You can augment most all gear what set bonus would be the best
4 set PvE or 2 set PvE and 2 set PvP?
Im looking more in a PvE setting madness.

[nish]

(06-28-2012 11:07 PM)prim Wrote:  So Now that You can augment most all gear what set bonus would be the best
4 set PvE or 2 set PvE and 2 set PvP?
Im looking more in a PvE setting madness.

This is a good question because the 4 piece rakata amounts to approximately 20 alacrity at 400 alacrity which isn't up all the time. For me simc says 12 dps.

However, with lightning doing well I'd like to know how this would affect the dps. Somehow I get the feeling I'd have a hard time getting off my disturbance casts and procs.

-Nish

[Kaedis]

We've examined that set bonus before, and it's always come back as inferior to the PvE 4-set.

Note that the PvE 4-set bonus becomes more powerful the more Alacrity you have, both in terms of how much Alacrity rating it is equivalent to (1.5625% average over time, assuming 100% uptime, means that at 400 Alacrity Rating it's equivalent to 72.3 Alacrity Rating, while at 100 Alacrity Rating it's equivalent to only 49.3 Alacrity Rating) and in terms of raw DPS increase (because Activation Speed scales better than linearly).

Also note that while Crushing Darkness is your higher DPCT ability, its individual DoT ticks are your weakest (Affliction and CT both tick for more damage per tick). This means it is better to use as many Deathmark charges as possible on Affliction and CT rather than CD ticks. Reducing the CD cooldown impairs this, reducing the DPS benefit from the shorter CD.

For Lightning, there's absolutely zero chance of the PvP 2-set being superior, as Lightning scales far better with Alacrity than Madness, and gains far less DPS benefit out of Crushing Darkness.

[Lhokz]

(06-29-2012 06:26 AM)Kaedis Wrote:  For Lightning, there's absolutely zero chance of the PvP 2-set being superior, as Lightning scales far better with Alacrity than Madness, and gains far less DPS benefit out of Crushing Darkness.

I have 225 alacrity rating. With the Lightning rotation, I do every CL instant. I cast a lightning strike in 1.4s, same for force lightning with barrage. I only cast crushing darkness and thundering blast on CD.

So, I'm under the GCD for the main part of my rotation, how can alacrity be more powerfull for only two spells?

[Kaedis]

Quote:I have 225 alacrity rating. With the Lightning rotation, I do every CL instant. I cast a lightning strike in 1.4s, same for force lightning with barrage. I only cast crushing darkness and thundering blast on CD.

So, I'm under the GCD for the main part of my rotation, how can alacrity be more powerfull for only two spells?

Please read the OP. Alacrity reduces the GCD for all non-instant abilities that fall below 1.5 seconds. Basically, for casted and channeled abilities, the GCD is equal to the final modified cast time or 1.5 seconds, whichever is less. For instant effects, of course, the GCD is always 1.5 seconds.

Do you really honestly believe that Bioware would have given a 20% Alacrity CD to a spec whose filler was already GCD capped?

[dipstik]

I have an issue with the staple that willpower is 10% better than power.

For DPS:

willpower gives 0.2 power gives 0.23. with buff and skill points willpower gives 0.222, giving power a 0.008 lead.
when we throw in that crit increases damage by crit times surge and the amount of crit you get per point of willpower I find that c(w+1)-c(w) gives from 6E-5 (at willpower 0 to 1) and 3.5E-5 at willpower 2000. which is too little to compete with the bonus damage increase from power (by 1.5 orders of magnitude). this assumes a surge rating of 275.

please tell me what i am missing.