Threat conversation

[Jothay]

Tested against the rancor world boss on tatooine with a Juggernaut that is Half Columi/Half Rakata:

Full Immortal spec did about 1250 Threat per Second (real numbers)
Immortal/Vengeance did about 1350 Threat per Second (real numbers)

Yes, there is a threat difference, but not as much a you might think and you are losing Survivability and Mitigation by going into Hybrid.

Also, the taunt threat mechanic appears to be:

You need 130% of another person's threat to pull target off them. In addition to the taunt forcing the target to attack you for 6 seconds, you are automatically brought to this 130% mark. So...

#1 Threat is Sorcerer DPS at 10k
#2 Threat is Main Tank at 9k

Tank Taunts

#1 Threat is Main Tank at 13k (10k * 130%)
#2 Threat is Sorcerer DPS at 9k + 1 GCD worth

Tank Taunts again (uses AoE taunt)

#1 Threat is Main Tank at 16.9k (13k * 130%)
#2 Threat is Sorcerer DPS at 9k + 2 GCD worth

If you mix in Off Tank Taunts, you only further increase the 130% barriers.

There is an additional mechanic that says anyone standing right under the boss, only needs 110% threat to pull. Melee DPS that outgear the tank, could break this 110% quite easily.

What can you draw from this?
1) Unless there is a reason to save it (such as a threat dump) use taunts every time they are off cooldown
2) Initial MT threat can go a lot higher if in the first few GCDs of a fight you have the raid do 5 seconds damage, then OT taunt twice, then the MT taunt twice
3) Melee DPS should be at the edge of a boss's hitbox at minimum, never closer
4) MT should in front of the boss, but not directly under him

Also, there is no threat decay other than threat dumping bosses.

[Kaedis]

Quote:4) MT should sit as close to the boss as possible

This is the one part that's actually false. Since the amount of threat necessary to pull off a target is not based on where that target is standing but where you are standing, the tank being closer does not decrease the likelihood he will lose aggro. However, Taunt sets your threat equal to the amount you would need to pull off of the mob's current aggro target, even if that's yourself (per cmf's testing earlier in this thread), so being super close to the boss puts you in the 110% pull bracket instead of the 130%, reducing the effectiveness of Taunt by 2/3rds.

Example, tank has 10k threat and is standing at maximum melee range on a mob he currently has aggro at. If he taunts, his threat will be set to the amount he would need to pull aggro (off himself o.O), or 130% of 10k, putting him at 13k.

If the same tank with the same amount of threat is instead standing directly beneath the mob, he would only need 110% of his threat to pull aggro off himself, so taunting would only increase his threat by 10% to 11k.

Otherwise your findings agree perfectly with cmf's. Good info on the threat decay, but how specifically did you test it?

Also, moving this thread to the game mechanics section, since it's really about far more than just Sith Warriors/Jedi Knights.

[Jothay]

You are totally right Kor, I mis-spoke. Teaches me to not double-check what I wrote.

We tested Threat decay by looking at the raw threat information over the course of combat, the numbers will only go down if there's a threat dump.

[hxxr]

Not entierly unrelated ... are any specifics known about the 'Bonethrasher' encounter?

From what I could gather these things are at least true:
- immune to taunts (obviously)
- if the targeted player uses any threat dump (0.25 or 25 coefficient ones alike) the boss will switch to the next target immediately
- effectively has random aggro

My question is, do players not build any threat against him in the first place or does he dump his threat each time he uses an ability. Or phrased differently, is the -0.99 threatmodifier applied each time he strikes or is it a passive effect.

I'd like to figure out what makes him switch targets, when using any threat reduction ability. And I'm just asking for information you might have on the fight that I overlooked.

On topic:
How sure are you about the 0.25 modfier being 25%?

I always use my Chaff Flare and yet pull threat quite frequently, especially within the first 30% of an encounter or throughout fights that have a periodic threat reset (like Foreman Crusher).
Although I wouldn't exclude the possibility of our tanks not using taunt frequently enough within their rotation. :-x

Or on Jarg and Sorno I was shooting at Jarg together with our Sorcerer (we supposedly deal most damage in the raid and suspect that we're very close to each other, as far as Infernal Council can be used as a measurement) and I did use my threat dump when he didn't. I ended up 2nd in Jarg's threat list every time (and got carbonized), wich would seem impossible with Chaff Flare dumping 25% of my threat. I'm simply looking for an explenation for this and 0.25 translating to 0.25% would be a reasonably one.


ps: Sorry for doubting more established members of this board on my first post, but I can't help to see a gap between your theory and my raid experience.

[Kaedis]

Quote:Not entierly unrelated ... are any specifics known about the 'Bonethrasher' encounter?

From what I could gather these things are at least true:
- immune to taunts (obviously)
- if the targeted player uses any threat dump (0.25 or 25 coefficient ones alike) the boss will switch to the next target immediately
- effectively has random aggro

My question is, do players not build any threat against him in the first place or does he dump his threat each time he uses an ability. Or phrased differently, is the -0.99 threatmodifier applied each time he strikes or is it a passive effect.

I'd like to figure out what makes him switch targets, when using any threat reduction ability. And I'm just asking for information you might have on the fight that I overlooked.

I have no hard data for this fight. However, I know that I tend to get targeted more than anyone else in my raid (and I'm definitely highest dps on that fight), and I'm one of the few that will get targeted 2 or 3 times back to back (the healers really hate that), so I suspect that threat has something to do with that fight, I just don't know how.

Quote:On topic:
How sure are you about the 0.25 modfier being 25%?

I would say 100% certain. From my tests, I know for a fact that the threat drop can push a mob off me to another player (that I just pulled aggro off of) if that player is standing directly under the mob (ie. in the 110% category), which implies that that the threat drop is at least an 18% threat drop. I also know that the threat drop cannot push a mob off me to another player (that I just pulled off of) standing at range to the mob, implying the ability is no more than a 40% threat drop. Given that the game files specifically notate 0.25, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is in fact a 25% drop.

Quote:I always use my Chaff Flare and yet pull threat quite frequently, especially within the first 30% of an encounter or throughout fights that have a periodic threat reset (like Foreman Crusher).
Although I wouldn't exclude the possibility of our tanks not using taunt frequently enough within their rotation. :-x

Or on Jarg and Sorno I was shooting at Jarg together with our Sorcerer (we supposedly deal most damage in the raid and suspect that we're very close to each other, as far as Infernal Council can be used as a measurement) and I did use my threat dump when he didn't. I ended up 2nd in Jarg's threat list every time (and got carbonized), wich would seem impossible with Chaff Flare dumping 25% of my threat. I'm simply looking for an explenation for this and 0.25 translating to 0.25% would be a reasonably one.

I suspect he actually sticks to the target he selects the first carbonize for the rest of the fight, and/or selects targets after Carbonize from something other than just raw threat (saw a comment about this same effect on the official forums recently as well). The player in question could be extricated (100% threat drop) and still get aggro on him after the tank was carbonized. Incidentally, many other fights in operations have threat drops or threat resets that contribute to you pulling threat. I have the same issue. I get regular Extricates/Intercedes instead.

Quote:ps: Sorry for doubting more established members of this board on my first post, but I can't help to see a gap between your theory and my raid experience.

Theorycrafting is science, plain and simple. Never fear doubting the established knowledge regardless of who is professing it (but make sure you at least have some rationale, as you do in this case!). Anyone who thinks enough of themselves that they can't bear to be wrong (or thinks that being wrong somehow diminishes them as a person) doesn't really belong in a scientific discussion anyway. Being wrong is not bad, it's good (because we learned something!). Doubt is good in science, it's the cog that makes everything tick.

[hxxr]

(03-12-2012 11:17 PM)Kor Wrote:  I have no hard data for this fight. However, I know that I tend to get targeted more than anyone else in my raid (and I'm definitely highest dps on that fight), and I'm one of the few that will get targeted 2 or 3 times back to back (the healers really hate that), so I suspect that threat has something to do with that fight, I just don't know how.

Oh yes, I think my record for being chained by Bonethrasher is 5 times in a 8-man raid and 3 during 16-man.
Threat probably does have something to do with it, as tanks are useless without taunt and the boss has a 0.99 threat reduction, wich leaves 1% to build.

It seems like he builds a set amount of threat against one player, hits him and then executes a 99% threat dump. So if you're hit frequently and do a lot of damage, at some point you'll come out ahead on threat. All the multiple hits in a row occured later in the fight for me.
And it would make sense to be able to 'send him away' by using your threat dumps.
I just have no idea how to actually test this and it acutally should be impossible with the tools we have right now.

(03-12-2012 11:17 PM)Kor Wrote:  I would say 100% certain. From my tests, I know for a fact that the threat drop can push a mob off me to another player (that I just pulled aggro off of) if that player is standing directly under the mob (ie. in the 110% category), which implies that that the threat drop is at least an 18% threat drop. I also know that the threat drop cannot push a mob off me to another player (that I just pulled off of) standing at range to the mob, implying the ability is no more than a 40% threat drop. Given that the game files specifically notate 0.25, the only conclusion I can draw is that it is in fact a 25% drop.

Wich does agree with Boney's 0.99 coefficient. I just can't believe some skills still have 2500% efficency ... maybe the ex-Funcom people at Bioware are slacking. :o

(03-12-2012 11:17 PM)Kor Wrote:  I suspect he actually sticks to the target he selects the first carbonize for the rest of the fight, and/or selects targets after Carbonize from something other than just raw threat (saw a comment about this same effect on the official forums recently as well). The player in question could be extricated (100% threat drop) and still get aggro on him after the tank was carbonized. Incidentally, many other fights in operations have threat drops or threat resets that contribute to you pulling threat. I have the same issue. I get regular Extricates/Intercedes instead.

Our Sorcerers and Juggernauts (and we have plenty of those) are sometimes a bit lazy.
We'll stick our heads together and investigate this the next sunday raid and are gathering ideas as I write this. :>
What you're saying does make sense, but if Jarg is taunted by another tank right before the probes spawn both tanks will be carbonized. And it begs the question as to when the selection of players is fixed. At the first spawning of the probes? It seems not to make any sense from a programmers point of view to be honest, but fits what happened yesterday rather well.
Still no proof though. My goal is to try everything I can that two different people are targeted (other than the tank) without dying.

(03-12-2012 11:17 PM)Kor Wrote:  Theorycrafting is science, plain and simple. Never fear doubting the established knowledge regardless of who is professing it (but make sure you at least have some rationale, as you do in this case!). Anyone who thinks enough of themselves that they can't bear to be wrong (or thinks that being wrong somehow diminishes them as a person) doesn't really belong in a scientific discussion anyway. Being wrong is not bad, it's good (because we learned something!). Doubt is good in science, it's the cog that makes everything tick.

True, as in scientific theories are falsified and never validated. I actually do study statistic and methodology, as it's of great importance for modern scientific psychology.
But I am still aware that people sometimes dislike if you just pop up and tell them that there's a possibility they'd be wrong.

[Jothay]

One way our Jugg Tanks have found to help keep Bonethrasher off the DPS is to Intercede the target he goes after. It immediately dumps that target's threat (due to the 2500% bug) and often puts the Jugg at the top again.

[hxxr]

This actually works with all threat dumps and is not advisable if the target would be anything but the squishiest player.
The boss will simple hit the next one quicker than usual resulting in almost no reduction of boss damage output.
Unless he has to cross the entire plattform first wich is impossible to forsee.

[Izod]

Above there is the assumption AOE taunt is function as Taunt currently is (setting threat at a mark). Has that been tested independently? I mean it's a fairly safe assumption, but the devs seemed pretty sure that Taunt was acting as a fixate and not an actual threat producing ability. I'm wondering if AOE Taunts are actually functioning 'as intended' according to those devs, and single-target Taunts are functioning as above testing has found.

[Kaedis]

Quote:Above there is the assumption AOE taunt is function as Taunt currently is (setting threat at a mark). Has that been tested independently? I mean it's a fairly safe assumption, but the devs seemed pretty sure that Taunt was acting as a fixate and not an actual threat producing ability. I'm wondering if AOE Taunts are actually functioning 'as intended' according to those devs, and single-target Taunts are functioning as above testing has found.

I don't believe this has been specifically tested, no.