Threat, wtf is going on...

[Stab]

.25% vs 25%, so Office Space!

I agree that scaling adjustment will help tremendously. We have been using force tugs and even then I can shred threat. Silly mercenaries and their silly damage. Some good info came from this thread so I am satisfied. PS, out of sheer laziness. What is the range on guard now? Was it adjusted recently from like the 15 yard range before?

[Coriolis]

(02-02-2012 04:09 AM)LagunaD Wrote:  Guard can be applied up to 30m away, but the effects only work within 15m.

The buff changes appearance depending on whether you are in/out of range, so if the target really wants to be guarded, they can watch the buff and move when it indicates they are too far away.

Yeah, the problem is the skill works completely different in pvp and pve and so I was holding out hope that maybe the 15 yard range only applies to the pvp effect. If it only works in 15m then you're probably better off just giving it to a melee. A ranged could of course sit in melee range but then they'd pull at 110% which negates most of the advantage of guarding them in the first place.

[swag]

(02-02-2012 04:13 AM)Coriolis Wrote:  

(02-02-2012 04:09 AM)LagunaD Wrote:  Guard can be applied up to 30m away, but the effects only work within 15m.

The buff changes appearance depending on whether you are in/out of range, so if the target really wants to be guarded, they can watch the buff and move when it indicates they are too far away.

Yeah, the problem is the skill works completely different in pvp and pve and so I was holding out hope that maybe the 15 yard range only applies to the pvp effect. If it only works in 15m then you're probably better off just giving it to a melee. A ranged could of course sit in melee range but then they'd pull at 110% which negates most of the advantage of guarding them in the first place.

it's a 15m range; the ranged can be close enough to benefit without being considered "in melee". also the only thing different about guard in pvp is that theres no added threat component, everything else is the same.

[Zikkar]

Nope I dont have any threat problems at all. Maybe you are spamming a bit to much and need to dial it back a bit.

[Coriolis]

(02-02-2012 06:02 AM)swag Wrote:  it's a 15m range; the ranged can be close enough to benefit without being considered "in melee". also the only thing different about guard in pvp is that theres no added threat component, everything else is the same.

The damage transfer doesn't work in pve. The threat reduction is irrelevant for pvp. The only shared part is the 5% damage reduction. And considering the hitbox size of most bosses, the range can only be in range of guard but outside of melee range if the boss doesn't have a frontal. And of course many do, or otherwise require movement.

[Kindread]

(02-02-2012 04:03 AM)Coriolis Wrote:  Well taunt puts you at the same threat as someone else (who had 130% more then you in order to pull from range), who now has to get another 30% on top on of his previous threat to get the mob off of you. I call that "stealing" threat, but it's really semantics.

I guess it really does make sence to think of it as stealing threat when you put it that way. I always viewed it as simply maintaining an even level of threat with the highest person on the mobs threat list. Beacuse basically it just puts you even with that person, instead of lowering their threat, which is what I would call "Threat Stealing" ... very good explination of your theory though!

Quote: My point was that when you're at the start of the fight 30% of your threat is maybe 2-3 abilities, but a minute in it's a ton of threat, so threat tends to only be an issue at the start. It also means that it's to your advantage to try to delay using a aoe taunt for trash, so long as you can do it without the dps dying, so that you can get relatively high threat on everything. For example on aoe packs I usually rush in, smash, do sweeping+enrage, then build rage as I start loosing most of the pack, and aoe taunt +ragedump after I've let the dps do some decent aoe damage. It's not perfect but you can hold most of the aoe packs most of the time this way.

This is a great thing to keep in mind, especially so when you die and get battle rezzed and are at 0 threat. You can taunt mid battle and be back in the threat game with a single push of a button.

Again though, while I understand the math you are explaining here, I still visualize it as maintaining an even threat level with the person highest on the mobs threat list, weather it be at the beginning of the fight where 30% is only around 5000, or 2 minutes into the fight where 30% is several million.

Quote:As for gearing for threat - personally I've just stuck to the default sets up to now (out of lazyness), columni, and now 4/5 rakata, which includes some accuracy (ok) and surge (which is really worthless to a jugg).

I try and have a steady balance of DPS and threat gear. Having 2 sets of relics, and a generator on hand for when you dont need the extra defense from the shield.

Quote:I'm biochem so if I really feel the need for threat I switch to the +str stim. Since juggs get no +crit chance or damage talents in the standard tank spec, I'd stack power for threat since crit/surge work best when you already have a fair bit of both along with talents that involve crit/crit damage. PTs however get some +crit and +crit damage talents which probably makes crit/surge better for you. Hard to tell how exactly without dps meters.

Biochem is the way to go. I switch out from endurance to aim stims quite often, and LOVE surge adrenals!

[Wolff Laarcen]

Chaff Flare (our threat dump) definitely seems like its not working at all, or reducing so little threat as to be insignificant. I use it on CD and still draw threat sometimes, and I know I'm not doing that much damage.

(02-02-2012 01:58 AM)Coriolis Wrote:  Your tanks simply need to play better. Right now it seems like juggs are the worst on threat (and probably the best on mitigation, at least when it comes to cooldowns), so if your tank is a jugg he's going to have issues

That's what I've noticed also. Juggs just arent generating the snap threat they need on trash pulls or multi-mob packs. With a jugg tanking you really just need to hit on your hands until the target is at 80% or so. Bosses, jugg seems fine though. Powertechs seem to have a bit more burst threat than Juggs, idk about mitigation. I havent EVER grouped with an Assassin tank, not even once.

[Kaedis]

Quote:Chaff Flare (our threat dump) definitely seems like its not working at all, or reducing so little threat as to be insignificant. I use it on CD and still draw threat sometimes, and I know I'm not doing that much damage.

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Thr...0#pid12650

[Stab]

Now here is another question, The threat dump on Bonethrasher is defined as

3 0 init SetReverse: IsReverse=>1
3 0 condition IfCalledByEffect
3 1 action ModifyThreat: AmountPercent=>-0.99

That would indicate it is -.99% based on the idea Chaff Flare is -.25%. We are under the assumption -.99 is actually 99% or a complete dump after Ground Pound or Knockback casts. It may be the case modifiers are calculated differently for NPCs and PCs I guess.

Oh and yes, it was a Juggernaut tank that was having single target threat issues. We are now going to use an Assassin tank with a PT off tank most likely. Hopefully this alleviates some of the burst threat issues. Having me overtake threat and taunt reflexively in NMM ops isn't an option with frontal cleaves, abilites, etc etc... We are however using Sorc tugs and that seems to help some as well, minus the dps losses and annoying positioning it creates.

[Coriolis]

(02-03-2012 05:48 AM)Stab Wrote:  Having me overtake threat and taunt reflexively in NMM ops isn't an option with frontal cleaves, abilites, etc etc...

Here I kind of disagree, even for NM. Taunt is instant, off-gcd, and with a 30 yard range. So long as your tank has fast reflexes and taunts back immediately, there really shouldn't be a problem, even if you do pull threat. So long as you aren't pulling aggro so often that both aoe and single taunts are on c/d when you pull aggro, I'd rather the dps go full damage from the start and quickly get to the point where they'll have alot of trouble pulling from me again until the end of the fight. This has always worked fine for us and we've never died due to pulling aggro+cleave or something like that. Of course if your dps is better then ours and/or your tank is worse and you're running out of taunts then you may have to hold back.

The only boss where I might end up asking the dps to hold back is karraga, the combination of his front and back aoes, and all the other issues with positioning him makes it hard to do maximum threat and annoying to loose aggro. I haven't had to do that on hard, but I imagine I may on NM when we get to that.