Annihilation | Watchmen Compendium

[Storm68]

I currently use the standard 5/31/5 Combat build and was considering changing to a Watchman build but unsure which way to spec my tree.
There are several options on the op but as I havent played in this spec yet is there a preferred/hybrid build that maximises dps more than another?
Not much has been said about the builds so I'am hoping for some positive feedback, thanks,

[Pantelijus]

I havent seen anyone bring up this so i will share my opinion on priority system and Berserk

Berserk should not be used every time u have 30 stacks of Fury.
If u use Berserk at start of fight before applying Deadly Saber u will waste 2 stacks of Berserk buff on first and second application of Deadly Saber which is a dps loss, best time to use Berserk is when u have second application of Deady Saber on target in between ticks (between first and second tick which is between first and third second of said DoT) and if possible Rupture on target.

Good thing about Berserk is that it doesnt have/affect GCD and it behaves differently from similar crit inducing effects from WoW (in WoW u must use said crit inducing buff/spell BEFORE applying DoTs otherwise said DoTs wont be affected by it)

On talent trees provided talents such as Ravager,Narrowed Hatred are kinda useless imo , Annihilate rotation/priority system is too tight for Ravage/Force Choke , Narrowed Hatred is only good for tank killers in PvP (your special and force based attacks already have 100% chance to hit) , Phantom has very limited/situational use due to nature of Force Camo

[Jeezas]

(03-06-2012 08:19 PM)Pantelijus Wrote:  Phantom has very limited/situational use due to nature of Force Camo

I have to disagree with you on this one. On many bosses your have a situation where Force Camo can spare your heal a lot of time by taking no damage, which is quite a good idea especially in Nightmare Mode. For example, taking a ball lightning from Soa, a trample from Gharj or a friendly slap from Bonethrasher. This is not only a question of not being killed by DoTs in PvP, imo this is quite a powerful defensive CD.

[Marek]

(03-06-2012 09:27 PM)Jeezas Wrote:  

(03-06-2012 08:19 PM)Pantelijus Wrote:  Phantom has very limited/situational use due to nature of Force Camo

I have to disagree with you on this one. On many bosses your have a situation where Force Camo can spare your heal a lot of time by taking no damage, which is quite a good idea especially in Nightmare Mode. For example, taking a ball lightning from Soa, a trample from Gharj or a friendly slap from Bonethrasher. This is not only a question of not being killed by DoTs in PvP, imo this is quite a powerful defensive CD.

In my experience you do not want to use camo for lightning orbs. It drops your threat and the lightning will go after someone else. I used it once for a nightmare Bonethrasher kill and saw the same thing: he snapped around and hit someone else.

It is extremely useful, but some care must be taken to ensure you don't stick someone with an enormous amount of damage that they aren't prepared for.

I agree with using it for island transitions on Gharj though. You can run right through him while he frenzies if the new island comes up behind him.

[Jeezas]

My bad, I thought Ball lightning was aggro-free. For Bonethrasher, I didn't mean when the boss targets you, but when someone is targeted near you and the slap is coming. You don't necessarily have time to move behind the boss, but you do have time to disappear and take no damage.

For Gharj, it's pure gold.

[Ezmode]

(03-06-2012 08:19 PM)Pantelijus Wrote:  I havent seen anyone bring up this so i will share my opinion on priority system and Berserk

Berserk should not be used every time u have 30 stacks of Fury.
If u use Berserk at start of fight before applying Deadly Saber u will waste 2 stacks of Berserk buff on first and second application of Deadly Saber which is a dps loss, best time to use Berserk is when u have second application of Deady Saber on target in between ticks (between first and second tick which is between first and third second of said DoT) and if possible Rupture on target.

Good thing about Berserk is that it doesnt have/affect GCD and it behaves differently from similar crit inducing effects from WoW (in WoW u must use said crit inducing buff/spell BEFORE applying DoTs otherwise said DoTs wont be affected by it)

On talent trees provided talents such as Ravager,Narrowed Hatred are kinda useless imo , Annihilate rotation/priority system is too tight for Ravage/Force Choke , Narrowed Hatred is only good for tank killers in PvP (your special and force based attacks already have 100% chance to hit) , Phantom has very limited/situational use due to nature of Force Camo

1 Stack of Deadly Saber does the same amount of damage as 1 tick of Rupture, using Berserk before applying Deadly Saber with no Rupture up will be the best course of action I believe, but you cant forgo using Rupture during that time either so it becomes even more complicated to use.

The main abilities use about 35 seconds of a minute if used on cooldown, Ravage would use 6.67 seconds, and Force Choke uses 3.60 seconds, leaving almost 9 GCDs for Assaults/Vicious Slashes depending on your Rage gain/spending.

Phantom is relatively useless in many cases, but it helps as a filler, and any oh shit moments.

[Jensen187]

Has there been any kind of confirmed numbers on average dps from a full hardmode geared watchmen? No modification changes, just normal rakata.

Also how does this spec compare to combat in relation to DPS?

I've also noticed that the burst from this spec seems significantly lower then all the other trees, so hard mode flashpoints and trash in ops, i hardly get the chance to pump out some dps as they die before i can apply my dots.

[Jeezas]

Are trash mobs the main point of a spec ? From my experience, for Ops bosses (any difficulty mode), Annihilation/Watchman had a steadier dps than Carnage/Combat. Not necessarily far better, but less random, as your dps doesn't fall dramatically if you had to move during a proc. On the other hand, you are right, the burst capacity is not that great. But a Berserk at the good moment with 3 DS stacks can be really efficient.

@Ezmode: I think I figured out your Annihilation + Rupture refresh situation, at least for the average Rupture cooldown calculation, I'll be posting this in a couple of hours (lunch break).

[Jensen187]

(03-07-2012 06:18 PM)Jeezas Wrote:  Are trash mobs the main point of a spec ?

I wasn't insinuating that at all, i was just merely pointing out that i'm basically unable to contribute much meaningful dps until a boss encounter.

Some of the other melee classes have sustainable dps and burst and feel less like a one trick pony.

Quote:From my experience, for Ops bosses (any difficulty mode), Annihilation/Watchman had a steadier dps than Carnage/Combat. Not necessarily far better, but less random, as your dps doesn't fall dramatically if you had to move during a proc.

Is that really true? I mean if you have to move say on Gharj or Soa, Your about to apply your OS and Cauterize and he does a pounce or you get balled, your dps drops significantly and it will take at least 4 GCD's to bring your sustainable DPS back up. No idea if that is classified as a long time mind you, so i'm merely speculating here.

Quote:But a Berserk at the good moment with 3 DS stacks can be really efficient.

While that may be true, the vast majority of the time you don't have Zen ready and your 3 stacks of OS generally don't get applied before the trash is killed.

While i don't think there is anything wrong with the DPS on long encounters with this spec, i just feel it lacks a lot of burst. This issue would easily be overcome with duel spec, which sadly isn't anywhere near.

Would it be possible to hybridise watchmen with combat or focus, while still sustaining our dot based dps? The only hurdle i can see is the use of Juyo Form, without Juyo, our dots do significantly less damage and the burst provided from the other specs are reliant upon there respective stances.

[Jeezas]

(03-07-2012 07:44 PM)Jensen187 Wrote:  I wasn't insinuating that at all, i was just merely pointing out that i'm basically unable to contribute much meaningful dps until a boss encounter.
Some of the other melee classes have sustainable dps and burst and feel less like a one trick pony.

Sorry if the answer seemed mean, it wasn't written with bad intentions. I just wanted to say that if you are in HM Flashpoint, trash just explode with a simple Vicious slash (or if they are super strong, an Annihilation), so the burst problem is irrelevant, and Ops trash have enough life to allow you to DoT, even if you aren't indeed the best dps for them. But this is no big deal, I mean it's trash.

Quote:Is that really true? I mean if you have to move say on Gharj or Soa, Your about to apply your OS and Cauterize and he does a pounce or you get balled, your dps drops significantly and it will take at least 4 GCD's to bring your sustainable DPS back up. No idea if that is classified as a long time mind you, so i'm merely speculating here.

Here you take the weak part of the spec, long moves. But there are few of them, and for short moves (Ball Lightning on Soa, Gamorrean on Bonethrasher, grip by Jarg if you're on Sorno, rock throwing on the Foreman Crusher, Missiles or Bump on the Annihilation Droid, and much more) it is not a problem. On the contrary, in Carnage spec, even a short move during a Blood Frenzy proc or just when you Gored, is a real dps loss. As for the 4 GCD thing, I don't know if it is a big loss either, I guess in a 5 minutes encounter this is not that big, but this is pure speculation, it would need to be compared with other classes.

Quote:While that may be true, the vast majority of the time you don't have Zen ready and your 3 stacks of OS generally don't get applied before the trash is killed.

Sorry if you understood my answer for trash mobs, I meant for boss burst phases (Soa P3 for example). I don't usually burst for trash.

Quote:Would it be possible to hybridise watchmen with combat or focus, while still sustaining our dot based dps? The only hurdle i can see is the use of Juyo Form, without Juyo, our dots do significantly less damage and the burst provided from the other specs are reliant upon there respective stances.

For this one, I'll pass. No damn idea.


Edit: Ezmode, here are my thoughts about the Rupture reset.
There are 3 cases for the Rupture cd, assuming that you try to Annihilate just after your Rupture to have the best chances of resetting it, which looks like something you want to do.
Case 1 (case "luck"): Rupture, Annihilate : Rupture resets.
Case 2 (case "no luck"): Rupture, Annihilate (Rupture doesn't reset), whatever you want to do for 7.5 seconds, Annihilate: Rupture resets.
Case 3 (case "F*** this game, I'm going to watch The Simpsons"): Rupture, Annihilate (Rupture doesn't reset), /dance for 7.5 seconds, Annihilate (Rupture doesn't reset), natural reset of Rupture after 15s.

For case 1, I did the recurrence in last page, the cooldown is 7.5 seconds.
For case 3, the cooldown is obviously 15 seconds.

I'll do a little recurrence simulation for case 2 (same thing I did for case 1):
T0: Rupture
T0+1GCD: Annihilation, Rupture doesn't reset.
T0+6s:Last tick, Rupture fades.
T0+1GCD+7.5s(=9s):Annihilation up, Annihilation, Rupture resets.
T0+2GCD+7.5s(=10.5s):Rupture
T0+1GCD+2*7.5s(=16.5s):Annihilation up, Annihilation, Rupture doesn't reset.
T0+2GCD+7.5s+6s(=16.5s):Last tick, Rupture fades.
T0+1GCD+3*7.5s(=24s):Annihilation up, Annihilation, Rupture resets.
T0+2GCD+3*7.5s(=25.5s):Rupture
T0+1GCD+4*7.5s(=31.5s): Annihilation up, Annihilation, Rupture doesn't reset.
T0+2GCD+3*7.5s+6s(=31.5s):Last tick, Rupture fades.
T0+1GCD+5*7.5s(=39s): Annihilation up, Annihilation, Rupture resets.
T0+2GCD+5*7.5s(=40.5s):Rupture

So we can see that if the first Annihilation (just after the Rupture) doesn't reset the Rupture cd, the following Rupture happens 10.5s after the first one, and then Annihilation is up 1 second before the natural 15s reset of Rupture. In this case, knowing that you already have 3 Annihilator stacks, you can afford to use another skill before Rupture, and then Annihilation to try to reset it directly.
But this is just a tip, for now the interesting fact is that if you Rupture + Annihilation (no reset), blablabla, Annihilation (reset), your cooldown is 10.5s.

Now that we have the 3 cooldowns for the 3 possible cases, we can do simple Statistics. The 67% of the talent being obviously 2/3, I will use fractions to be a little more comprehensible and precise.
Annihilation has 2/3 chances to reset the cooldown of Rupture, so when we Rupture + Annihilation, we have 2/3 case 1 and 1/3 something else.
This something else brings us to the second Annihilation, which is 2/3 case 2 and 1/3 case 3.
So the weights of the cases are:
case 2: 1/3 * 2/3 = 2/9
case 3: 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9
case 1: 2/3 (=6/9).

In conclusion, we have an average cooldown for Rupture of : ((2/3)*7.5)+((2/9)*10.5)+((1/9)*15) = 5+2.333333+1.6666667 = 9s.
The theory gives us an average uptime of 6/9 = 67%.
Of course, this is assuming that you know what is good for you and you don't keep using your Annihilation 1GCD before your Rupture