Annihilation | Watchmen Compendium

[EasymodeX]

Aw hell, I accidentally deleted my post. Sigh. Gonna re-type it but making it fast.

Topic 1: Annhilate vs. VS.

Annihilate > VS.

Analysis using "Annihilate + Assault versus 2x VS". Notes:

- This equalizes the GCD cost (2) and net rage cost (2).
- Assault is the LEAST efficient rage generation mechanism. Any analysis that includes total rage generation by adding Battering Assault, rage from bleed ticks, force charge, or cloak of carnage will improve the "A+A" side of the comparison.
- This represents a "worst case" scenario for Annihilate.


Your numbers:
Annihilate 2784
VS 1499
Assault 881

A+A = 3665
VS2 = 2998

A+A > VS2.

With VS talents:

Annihilate 2784*(1+.3*.8) = 3452
VS 1499*(1+.45*.8)*1.06 = 2161
Assault 881*(1+.3*.8) = 1092

A+A = 4544
VS2 = 4322

4544 > 4322. A > VS2.


Topic 2: Bleed changes. It's pretty obvious that it's a nerf across the board if the new talent adds 30% crit damage. Especially for PvP specs that may skip Hemorrhage.

However, if BioWare implements the talent as a "total damage modifier on critical strikes", similar to the metagem back in WoW or certain talents, then it will be a slight buff on average.

Is the patch actually up on the PTS / has anyone actually tested the values there?

[Zerix]

I noticed that for the infernal council, the guide mentions using Juyo Form and not using Berserk. With Brutality, wouldn't it be better to be in SC form instead for the entire fight and spam Vicious Slashes when Berserk is up ?

[Genu]

(02-03-2012 06:28 AM)Zerix Wrote:  I noticed that for the infernal council, the guide mentions using Juyo Form and not using Berserk. With Brutality, wouldn't it be better to be in SC form instead for the entire fight and spam Vicious Slashes when Berserk is up ?

In Juyo Form you get 10% Bonus Damage vs 3% in Shii Cho, resulting in a 7% damage loss during that time. again, you need another 5 gcds for stacking up juyo after switching back. in addition, switching a stance triggers gcd, so -> Shii Cho -> 6x VS -> Juyo -> 5x normal Rotation you loose about gcd or 18 seconds of 7% damage enhancement, in addition to 18 seconds is loosing 2 annihilates, 1 deadly saber, 1 rupture and up to two rupture resets. it is not worth switching forms, even for the nice berserker. just do not use it at council.

@easymodeX:
Interesting at first look is refresh chance of rupture, A+A has 0,66 chance to get rupture refresh, VS a 0,52 Chance for at least one.
on second thought, A+A vs VS may be better at the point of gear you did your math for, but it may turn around if 2 VS scale more than A+A.
However, i think we are pretty far away from 2 VS surpassing A+A to the point where the 0,14 Rupture can be ignored.

@Masterkiller:
Thats quite an interesting thought, when force scream and smash do not apply a deadly saber stack, i could imagine keeping it up can be a huge dps increase.
Deadly Sabers damage tick is every 3 seconds, lasting 6 seconds. You can get tick per duration before you have to reapply and clip the last tick.
At 15 seconds CD, you are able to stretch its duration by 0. attack > 1. smash > 2. assault > 3 scream > 4.assault, which would be a timeline from 1 application to 3 stacks of 6 seconds, adding 6 durations, so 12 seconds length or 3 until it is ready again. so lets try to stretch more. however, this assumes that at second 3 you get the tick at reapplication, otherwise you need to have 2 skills inbetween applications to have a tick deal damage.

0.attack > 1. scream > 2. smash > 3. assault > 4. + 5. Choke > 6. Assault.
This way we can stretch to 9, adding 6 seconds duration to exactly 15.
you could be able with perfect timing and half a second delay between 2+3 and 5+6 to carry it over. once a minute.

however, in pure theory, assuming 240 damage per stack if you could keep it, you can have
a) application without delay -> 1 stack no tick, 2nd stack no tick, 3 stack 2x(3x240) = 1440 dmg
b) application with one ability delay, assuming you get the tick -> 1x240 + 1x(2x240) + 2x(3x240) = 240 + 480 + 1440 = 2160 dmg, or a pretty 30% increase. if not, same as a).
c) application with 2 abilities +0,5 delay -> 1tick 1 stack, 1tick 2 stacks, 2ticks 3stacks, expanding by smash assault +(1tick) scream assault, (+1 tick) assault (+2 ticks), no new carry over, again assuming you gain one tick by 1,5 delay.
this would equal 1x240 + 1x(2x240) + 6x(3x240) to deal 5040 damage. that is more than 3 times damage of case a).

However, i do not think that the restrictions for the rotation to this will make this up. maybe as a onetime opener.

[Gaahl]

(02-01-2012 09:26 PM)Genu Wrote:  The proc trinkets where deal 30% 250 kinetic /energy or 30% 205 Internal / Elemental damage with 4,5 internal cooldown.

The trinket that gives elemental damage is called Plasma Burst Device and only has 168 elemental/internal damange. This was the trinket that dropped for me in Nightmare Karragas. I just tested it awhile ago and I can confirm this trinket does stack with Juyo and our Crit chance does effect the trinket. I did both tests with and without Juyo, without Juyo it would hit for 168 and crit for about 219. With Juyo, as I gained stacks the damage of the proc increased and my crit at full stacks of Juyo was 319.

[Genu]

(02-03-2012 04:10 PM)Gaahl Wrote:  

(02-01-2012 09:26 PM)Genu Wrote:  The proc trinkets where deal 30% 250 kinetic /energy or 30% 205 Internal / Elemental damage with 4,5 internal cooldown.

The trinket that gives elemental damage is called Plasma Burst Device and only has 168 elemental/internal damange. This was the trinket that dropped for me in Nightmare Karragas. I just tested it awhile ago and I can confirm this trinket does stack with Juyo and our Crit chance does effect the trinket. I did both tests with and without Juyo, without Juyo it would hit for 168 and crit for about 219. With Juyo, as I gained stacks the damage of the proc increased and my crit at full stacks of Juyo was 319.

As the healing trinket did not seem to critical hit according to prior post i assumed that the damage variant would not critical hit either.

actually i am sorry for the direct damage mistake, seems my memory tricked me.

For 70% Surge and 30% crit we have normal proc 168 * 1.1 damage, critical proc 168 * 1.1 * 1.7, 184.4 normal damage, 314.16 critical damage.
So we have 0.7 * 184.4 + 0.3 * 314.16 average damage per proc, which equals
223.328. With an average proc at every third use after internal cooldown is over, we have 223.328 / 9 ~ 24.814 dps.

so this relic is best in slot, as it scales with gear when affected by surge and crit.

Another interesting point - do the internal and elemental trinket share the internal cooldown, or are you able to proc both if you wear both?

[Tumri]

(02-03-2012 07:32 PM)Genu Wrote:  

(02-03-2012 04:10 PM)Gaahl Wrote:  

(02-01-2012 09:26 PM)Genu Wrote:  The proc trinkets where deal 30% 250 kinetic /energy or 30% 205 Internal / Elemental damage with 4,5 internal cooldown.

The trinket that gives elemental damage is called Plasma Burst Device and only has 168 elemental/internal damange. This was the trinket that dropped for me in Nightmare Karragas. I just tested it awhile ago and I can confirm this trinket does stack with Juyo and our Crit chance does effect the trinket. I did both tests with and without Juyo, without Juyo it would hit for 168 and crit for about 219. With Juyo, as I gained stacks the damage of the proc increased and my crit at full stacks of Juyo was 319.

As the healing trinket did not seem to critical hit according to prior post i assumed that the damage variant would not critical hit either.

actually i am sorry for the direct damage mistake, seems my memory tricked me.

For 70% Surge and 30% crit we have normal proc 168 * 1.1 damage, critical proc 168 * 1.1 * 1.7, 184.4 normal damage, 314.16 critical damage.
So we have 0.7 * 184.4 + 0.3 * 314.16 average damage per proc, which equals
223.328. With an average proc at every third use after internal cooldown is over, we have 223.328 / 9 ~ 24.814 dps.

so this relic is best in slot, as it scales with gear when affected by surge and crit.

Another interesting point - do the internal and elemental trinket share the internal cooldown, or are you able to proc both if you wear both?

The trinkets share cooldowns as stated in the description.

I recently chose to get the Energy(mitigated by armor) damage proc trinket and at the time I assumed that this was better than the internal damage because of the large discrepancy in damage along. I also assumed the -20% armor debuff would push the energy damage value up even higher.

There are some questions I have about boss mechanics:

1. What is the base armor of bosses? How much reduction do they have?
2. Are armor reduction debuffs still stacking with each other for a potential 100% armor reduction?


3. This is unrelated to the trinket but has it been confirmed that the accuracy cap for specials is 108%? On the bounty hunter forums I found multiple posts claiming that this was the cap to push dodge/parry off the table for specials.


____________________________________________________________

@OP

There are some issues I'm seeing with the compendium.

The potential max DPS of 1450 seems obscenely low. I've been doing some solo out-of-raid testing on a champion mob I found with 130-136k HP and typically I get around 1750DPS with my highest being 1791DPS. This is self-buffed with our own +5% buff and Rakata Might Stim using Rakata Power Adrenals and without Mark of Power or IA buff. On Council I found myself doing about 1700DPS even with the loss of Berserk due to the raid buffs.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4...ature=plcp

So far I've used bloodthirst on all the tests but I will do another set without the use of bloodthirst or power adrenals in about an hour(posting from a lecture hall atm). I guarantee the result will certainly be higher the 1450 listed. The only conceivable reason for such low damage estimates would probably be sub-optimal mods.

The spec I'm using is 31/3/7 which is the same as the one listed except I got rid of Close Quarters for Subjugation. I found that with my gear it was a DPS loss to use Force Charge in the rotation since the net gain was 1 Rage over an auto attack and Force Charge was ~800DMG while Assault was ~1200DMG and Vicious Slash was ~1700DMG and as a result 1 rage was worth about 250DMG while the difference between FC and Assault was 400DMG. I'm not sure if using Force Charge over Assault is worth it unless you spec for +1 rage from FC, which is a sub-optimal DPS spec.

Has it been proven that the Surge adrenal is better than the Power Adrenal? The game's insane DR discourages large bursts of surge or crit and in my current gear a surge adrenal is worth around +10% crit damage while the power adrenal increases the base damage of all my skills by a significant amount(Around 8%). It would seem like common sense to take +8% to all damage over +10% crit damage.

Another nitpick is about your instructions regarding Bloodthirst. It's a group wide buff that only effects 3 other raiders. It's not the WoW Bloodlust . It's not realistic to have a raid leader call bloodthirst. It's far more effective to coordinate with the 3 other DPSers in your group to find a time when the buff will have maximum effectiveness. The use of the buff should be at the marauder's discretion. A raid leader calling it out will merely cut into it's usefulness because it is best used in combination with adrenals and trinkets.

[Genu]

(02-04-2012 05:00 AM)Tumri Wrote:  1. What is the base armor of bosses? How much reduction do they have?
2. Are armor reduction debuffs still stacking with each other for a potential 100% armor reduction?
3. This is unrelated to the trinket but has it been confirmed that the accuracy cap for specials is 108%? On the bounty hunter forums I found multiple posts claiming that this was the cap to push dodge/parry off the table for specials.

There are some issues I'm seeing with the compendium.

The potential max DPS of 1450 seems obscenely low. I've been doing some solo out-of-raid testing on a champion mob I found with 130-136k HP and typically I get around 1750DPS with my highest being 1791DPS. This is self-buffed with our own +5% buff and Rakata Might Stim using Rakata Power Adrenals and without Mark of Power or IA buff. On Council I found myself doing about 1700DPS even with the loss of Berserk due to the raid buffs.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4...ature=plcp

So far I've used bloodthirst on all the tests but I will do another set without the use of bloodthirst or power adrenals in about an hour(posting from a lecture hall atm). I guarantee the result will certainly be higher the 1450 listed. The only conceivable reason for such low damage estimates would probably be sub-optimal mods.

The spec I'm using is 31/3/7 which is the same as the one listed except I got rid of Close Quarters for Subjugation. I found that with my gear it was a DPS loss to use Force Charge in the rotation since the net gain was 1 Rage over an auto attack and Force Charge was ~800DMG while Assault was ~1200DMG and Vicious Slash was ~1700DMG and as a result 1 rage was worth about 250DMG while the difference between FC and Assault was 400DMG. I'm not sure if using Force Charge over Assault is worth it unless you spec for +1 rage from FC, which is a sub-optimal DPS spec.

Has it been proven that the Surge adrenal is better than the Power Adrenal? The game's insane DR discourages large bursts of surge or crit and in my current gear a surge adrenal is worth around +10% crit damage while the power adrenal increases the base damage of all my skills by a significant amount(Around 8%). It would seem like common sense to take +8% to all damage over +10% crit damage.

Another nitpick is about your instructions regarding Bloodthirst. It's a group wide buff that only effects 3 other raiders. It's not the WoW Bloodlust . It's not realistic to have a raid leader call bloodthirst. It's far more effective to coordinate with the 3 other DPSers in your group to find a time when the buff will have maximum effectiveness. The use of the buff should be at the marauder's discretion. A raid leader calling it out will merely cut into it's usefulness because it is best used in combination with adrenals and trinkets.

To 1. I actually cannot tell you the base armor of bosses. according to other mmos i would expect a reduction from about 10-15%.
To 2. i will do some testing as i get my hands on a bountyhunter and a juggernaut for testing.

From what i can tell you watching your video: yes, it proves that your dps are much higher actual, and so are mine. as i wrote at the talents section, i do mistrust the calculations of the spreadsheet, as there seem some awkward dps boosts at certain selections or stats variation. as i tried calculation the permanent stat bonus on adding the permanent surge derived from the adrenal, i get a 6 dps improve while selecting the adrenal at section of spreadsheet provides a boost of about 50 dps.

As i told i wanted to wait some releases, see if it improves.
However, as there is no damage meter and no current tool like wow's simulation craft, it is hard to get dps values beside of recording how long you need to kill a mob and derive your dps from hitpoints / killingtime needed. however, that is no statistical method, you may have a lucky phase or an unlucky phase, there are many other factors as latency, human error on rotation etc. You are not able to provide statistical data, your priority iterations are less to small testing sample. Yes, we do excel the dps provided by the spreadsheet. (like the tooltip damage of annihilation is about 1000 damage lower at tier3 than ingame?!).
However, if you read the paragraph, i asked for comparison to current simulating numbers with the spreadsheet, because i mistrust it. yet there is no other tool, so deploying actual values is awful. and from your type of simulation, you cannot tell if its 1732.4 or 1742.9 dps you did, which is interesting for optimization.

31/8/0 +2 Build has its advantages 31/3/7 as the accuracy does not underly the decreasing value caps of critical hit, which makes it better when critical value decreasing point is reached by gear.

The 31/10/0 Force charge spec has its advantages in resource generation.

So there is need for verification that force charge + deadly saber > deadly saber + assault. the question is, is it worth spending an additional gcd on rage generation for additional assault.

5 minute fight 24 uses of deadly saber are needed, 1500 damage deadly saber (300s / 12s = 25 uses, -1 because you wont applicate ds the second when fights over.)
800 damage charge, 24 times +3 Rage, 0 overflow equals 2300dmg at 1 gcd
1200 damage assault, 48 uses, +4 rage, 1 overlfow equals 2700dmg at 2 gcd or 1450 at 1 gcd.
average damage damage per rage spend over all abilities is 620, so we have 2070dmg per gcd over 2300 per gcd.

With force charge skilled +1 rage, you can add this overflow to force charge, dealing significant more damage per gcd spend.

Coordinating Bloodthirst with the other 3 dps? well that whats the raidleader is for. if you do it yourself, feel free to do so. leaving bloodthirst handled by the one who should coordinate the raid is no nitpick. if you do not have your cooldowns for lineup with bloodthirst, you miscalculated fight duration, therefore it is your fail.

Yes, only your group is affected, and the invitation row has to be planned when setting up the raid.

[Marek]

(02-03-2012 07:32 PM)Genu Wrote:  For 70% Surge and 30% crit we have normal proc 168 * 1.1 damage, critical proc 168 * 1.1 * 1.7, 184.4 normal damage, 314.16 critical damage.
So we have 0.7 * 184.4 + 0.3 * 314.16 average damage per proc, which equals
223.328. With an average proc at every third use after internal cooldown is over, we have 223.328 / 9 ~ 24.814 dps.

so this relic is best in slot, as it scales with gear when affected by surge and crit.

I just tested Dark Energy Surge. I have a bit higher Surge rating and saw 185 normal hits and 317 crits.

[yillin]

Wrote some theorycraft for DS/OS, it was wrong.

Just post a correction instead. DS/OS ticks a full stack 3 times, not 2.

[FobManX]

Do we know yet with any certainty whether the 6% crit talent in the Focus/Rage tree affects dots and is worth speccing into as Watchman/Anhilation? Seems like it's still split among the masses. I'm thinking of taking the 3 points out of the 3% Accuracy talent as I'm already at 110% with Specials and putting them into the Crit talent.