Is there a Compendium on Shadow/Sin Madness DPS?

[AmonAmarth]

So what's the new top level raiding dps spec? 14/27?

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601ZuMrRzZcrcRrMkrM.1

We have 2 raiding shadows, we have very similar gear and do near equal dps on the duel event of EV, so I may go further down infiltration and he'll go back to 31 balance and we'll compare.

[Alratan]

I think that the major work from this post of the 'May The Force Be With You' thread is still relevant in terms of damage comparison of non-hybrid builds, and given the removal of hybrid synergy, I'd suggest that any build going for Surging Charge would have to go all the way.

Disclaimer: I have not performed modelling/testing on the following, but it does at least set out what variables need testing.

This is because switching Charge/Technique in combat is prohibitively expensive (especially with the change to 100), and using SurgingC/ShadowT greatly reduces the bonus from Creeping Death/Mental Scarring, and entirely negates the bonus from Crackling Charge/Force Focus. SurgingC/ShadowT and its Discharge/Breach also does not come into its own (even with Induction/Circling Shadows) without the force recovery and bonus damage on Discharge/Breach from the later skills.

Therefore, I think the only options are a full build with one of the following:

Pinning Resolve
Focused Insight

There's a seperate Deception/Infiltration thread, but unless we can easily establish that one build is clearly superior to the other, which is difficult without a combat log, it is probably prudent to keep this thread confined to Madness/Balance and not try to have one thread deal with both issues.

[AmonAmarth]

(02-02-2012 08:38 PM)Alratan Wrote:  I think that the major work from this post of the 'May The Force Be With You' thread is still relevant

If that is relevant, why would anyone ever go infiltration/deception when balance/madness does so much more dps? I ask as someone who find the infiltration playstyle fun

[Cancelled]

(02-04-2012 11:16 AM)AmonAmarth Wrote:  

(02-02-2012 08:38 PM)Alratan Wrote:  I think that the major work from this post of the 'May The Force Be With You' thread is still relevant

If that is relevant, why would anyone ever go infiltration/deception when balance/madness does so much more dps? I ask as someone who find the infiltration playstyle fun

I think the main reasons would be;

1. Burst - Madness has basically none, outside of Maul procs. Deception is one of, if not the, highest burst specs in the game.

2. Playstyle - Madness is a lot trickier to play than Dec. As Dec the only real choice you have to make is Discharge with relation to Static Charges stacks, and when to SS. Madness has a lot more management with dots - Creeping Terror, Crushing Darkness, Lightning Charge, Death Marks, and in turn Death Field CD.

Another thing to remember is those numbers are definitely not concrete IMO. They're a great guide, but I think without a really good sim to play with, taking them as gospel might not be the best idea. We can't be sure if any of the recent changes affect the DPS of each either.

There was also a problem with Deathmarks reported where other players dots were consuming them, which in turn nerfed a Madness Sins force regen.

As far as it goes right now, IMO, unless you can see a significant improvement on a fight like IC(this is the only one where you can know that it is your performance that has changed) with the Madness spec, then Deception would be fine to play - the raids aren't especially hard and we just don't have the tools available to us to say for sure that one spec is better than the other.

Of course this applies to your question, as far as you wanting to play the spec you enjoy rather than the spec you're told you should play. For anyone wanting to min/max raid performance, Madness is more than likely the way to go, and I'm not really trying to argue that.

tl;dr. I say play what you like right now, the game is in its infancy and unless you are severely under performing as a certain spec, have some fun without the constraints of a hardcore certified raid spec.

[AmonAmarth]

(02-04-2012 04:37 PM)Cancelled Wrote:  [quote]I think the main reasons would be... etc.

Thanks Cancelled, I appreciate the input. Now that I've run as bal/madness for a while, infiltration/deception almost feels too simple. I like having to watch for various procs and having lots of dots.

Anyway, we run EV on Wednesday and we have 2 shadows in equivalent gear so it will be interesting to see how well the 31 balance/madness compares to my 31 infiltration/deception spec.

[Alratan]

Another issue to bare in mind is that with two Madness Assassins, players cannot differentiate the owners of debuffs and DoTs. Thus, maintaining DoTs properly on the target can sometimes be quite tricky with more than one Madness Assassin.

[Warpstone]

While I am a fan of play what you enjoy I will always make sure my gear is top notch. My experience as a Madness Assassin was not very enjoyable. I spent my 2 week run doing HM FP and OP and found my concentration more focused keeping my DoTs up and watching for my Raze proc than the fights themselves (I do admit I perfer to keep stuff simple and I prefer a 31 Deception build) but during my time I did see the strength of the Madness spec. You will always be doing damage due to the DoTs your force pool will never run dry so no real wasted attacks using Saber Strike and it is a challenge.
On a seperate note during my time as Madness our 3 Sorcs on the OPs are also Madness speced and I noticed the Death Marks that got applied to the Bosses during the fights got eaten rather quickly so I for my force back very fast which at times left me using Saber Strike to get force back as opposed to a more stable regen.

At this time I still belive Madness hybrid to be the better spec for DPS but some new number crunching would be needed once the new patch comes through to check. I like the changes as it should close the DPS gap of the two specs which I think is a good thing.

[jediwaldo]

I have been leveling an alt in a semi-weird fashion for fun. Strictly leveling off mostly Warzones, occasional Flashpoints, and only the Class quests for each planet.

Currently, I am Level 27 with a Valor Rank of 27.

I haved tried a mix of all 3 types of builds for SA. Personally, I am liking the Madness/Deception hybrid for the SA in PvP. Its awesome to pop out of stealth, finish off one person while I start in another person right away. I understand at this point I only have skill points in madness, but Death Field is so darn uber.

I even tanked Mando Raiders last night and held AoE aggro fairly damn well with DeathField, Dark Charge, and Lacerate with ease.

Would like to know more about this spec, as it is hard to find much information on it. I also believe the "nerf" that the general forums called about for this patch was overexagerated and the patch actually made me want to change to this spec.


What are your guys' opinion on this spec more?

[fex]

(02-09-2012 01:48 AM)jediwaldo Wrote:  Currently, I am Level 27 with a Valor Rank of 27.

I think I found your problem.

You're not high enough to get Raze much less notice that it doesn't work in Dark Charge.

Edit: sorry, you can get Raze at 24, but you said "Hybrid" so I assumed you had points in more than one tree. So you can get Raze, and probably notice that it doesn't work in Dark Charge, and this probably answers your questions about the "nerf" then.

You're not even remotely high enough to get Harnessed Darkness, much less notice that it doesn't work in Lightning Charge.

Hybrids aren't necessarily "dead" but the major Shock synergy talents in each tree have been restricted such that they will only work when using the appropriate Charge.

[AmonAmarth]

(02-04-2012 11:22 PM)AmonAmarth Wrote:  Anyway, we run EV on Wednesday and we have 2 shadows in equivalent gear so it will be interesting to see how well the 31 balance/madness compares to my 31 infiltration/deception spec.

Well the run is done and I beat him by about a half a second although I have a few rakata pieces and he is only in columi. So I would say that 31 infiltration/deception does respectable dps in comparison to 31 balance/madness. Especially because when we were both hybrid madness I would come out a split second behind him.

As far as our specs, I would say we shine in different areas. My aoe is better (I can sustain whirling blow for a decent amount of time if needed) and my burst is better for fights like Soa with the mindtraps and shield or the 3rd boss in Karaggas.

However, I believe his spec is better for bosses like Gharj where one must run out. My dps essentially stops but his dots keep on ticking. As long as we are running with 2 shadows, I think our best bet is for one of us to go balance/madness and the other to go infiltration/deception.

I do miss force in balance though and I think dots are great for pvp (although i love finishing people off with some huge hits). Anyway, cheers. Happy to answer any questions about my gear, rotation etc, but I am by no means an expert and I wouldn't say this is conclusive for anyone but myself.