Softcaps discussion

[Kaedis]

Yes, we should clarify here. There are 2 categories sets attacks fall under, attack type (tech, force, melee, ranged) and damage type (kinetic, energy, internal, elemental). Melee and Ranged attacks only have an addition subcategory associated with them: Basic and Special. Basic attacks have a base 90% accuracy, Special attacks have a base 100% accuracy. Both, as with all melee and ranged attacks, are still susceptible to defense and shield.

"Special" in SWTOR doesn't have the same meaning it did in WoW. We need to take explicit and distinct care to use these terms properly and accurately. We are a beacon of knowledge for the SWTOR community, lets make sure that knowledge is as accurate, clear, and understandable as possible. Mixing term definitions just confuses everyone.

[TheDarkness]

How does one tell the difference between basic and special attacks, and also between melee and force attacks (or tech and ranged)?

[CaseyTheRetard]

(01-26-2012 04:36 AM)TheDarkness Wrote:  How does one tell the difference between basic and special attacks, and also between melee and force attacks (or tech and ranged)?

From the presence of the "IsSpecialAbility" tag on the effect.

Rifle Shot:

Code:

WeaponDamage: Slots=>[ PrimaryRanged ], Coefficient=>0.5, FlurryBlowsMax=>1, AmountModifierPercent=>-0.5, IgnoreDualWieldModifier=>1, FlurryBlowsMin=>1

Ambush:

Code:

WeaponDamage: StandardHealthPercentMin=>0.329, Slots=>[ PrimaryRanged ], StandardHealthPercentMax=>0.329, Coefficient=>3.29, AmountModifierPercent=>1.2, IgnoreDualWieldModifier=>1, IsSpecialAbility=>1

In practice, the attack each class gets at level 1 (Rifle Shot, Rapid Shots, Saber Strike, Assault) that has no resource cost is Basic. All other weapon attacks, both Ranged and Melee, are Special.

[Skeleton Jack]

(01-24-2012 06:37 AM)Style Wrote:  I don't have the video. it was 40 gigs by the time I was done. I deleted it after watching through it. If you don't want to take my word for it, you can go in and test it yourself.

I'm still new to these forums, so please take what I say next as an honest to God wish for these forums to be a reliable source of information that can be trusted and sought out by the player base. I am not trying to inflame you.

That is honestly unacceptable. You can set up a stream account with Twitch TV and stream at like 480p (doesn't have to be high quality) for when you test something. Twitch automatically records all of your streamed footage (so no uploading required or hard drive space used) and then anyone can just go watch your testing themselves. If your upload still can't handle that for some reason then pause the recordings or use an editor to split up the footage. And record at a lower resolution to reduce file size.

You can't base the entire theory of what the hit/miss cap is based off of one person's experience to begin with, let alone without any kind of evidence to support the claim. I like these forums, but if you can't substantiate your claims this will become known as a forum of conjecture and not fact. I've talked to several people now whose number one complaint about reading "facts" here is that they can't find the testing or proof for those claims.

(01-25-2012 05:56 PM)Kor Wrote:  There are 2 categories sets attacks fall under, attack type (tech, force, melee, ranged) and damage type (kinetic, energy, internal, elemental).

I don't understand why you guys insist on Melee, Range, Force, and Tech. There are just 3 attack types in game. Normal, Force, and Tech. Any of these three attack types can be melee or ranged. The melee/ranged descriptor can be applied to normal attacks (white damage), tech attacks (yellow damage), and force attacks (yellow damage) equally. Melee/Ranged is a definition of range, not the actual attack itself.

Test Information
The difficulty of the encounter was not stated. I was curious as to whether or not this was Normal? And did you test whether the defense score of the boss increased for Hard and Nightmare? As the dmg, hp, etc increases it is within reason to check whether the defense score did not also increase as well.

[Kaedis]

Quote:I don't understand why you guys insist on Melee, Range, Force, and Tech. There are just 3 attack types in game. Normal, Force, and Tech. Any of these three attack types can be melee or ranged. The melee/ranged descriptor can be applied to normal attacks (white damage), tech attacks (yellow damage), and force attacks (yellow damage) equally. Melee/Ranged is a definition of range, not the actual attack itself.

I'm sorry, but you're just flat wrong here. The community definition of "melee" and "ranged" may simply refer to the range of the attack, but the game actually defines attacks as one of the 4 types I listed. If you open your ability window, all abilities are listed as one 6 types: Melee, Ranged, Force, Tech, Active, Passive. The latter two are only for non-damaging attacks such as Jolt or Sprint. The first four come in sets. The four force classes have their damaging abilities split between Melee and Force, while the four non-force classes have them split between Ranged and Tech.

This does not imply the actual range of the ability. For example, both Corrosive Dart and Shiv are Tech attacks for an Operative, yet one has a 30m range, while the other is melee range. Saber Throw and Force Charge have 30m range, yet are consider Melee. Overload Shot is a Ranged attack, yet only has a 10m range.

When we refer to the "attack type", we're referring to how the game refers to the ability, as that has a substantial effect on the mechanics of the ability. We are not referring to how far away the attack can be used.

[Analysis]

(01-25-2012 01:53 PM)CaseyTheRetard Wrote:  "Special attack" implies that it is a Ranged attack and subject to defense. It is in fact a Tech attack, and NOT subject to defense, so does not affect the analysis of boss defense taking place in this thread. Clear enough?

I believe this is inaccurate. Rather, I contend that Tech (and Force) attacks are, indeed, subject to Defense Chance under the more specific (cosmetic*) term "Resistance." Defense Rating, however, increases only Melee and Ranged Defense Chance under the more specific (cosmetic) term "Dodge." Therefore, neither Tech (nor Force) attacks are subject to Defense from Defense Rating.

When looking at the Defense section of one's Character Sheet, the general Defense Chance shows the higher percentage, which is typically the Melee and Ranged Dodge chance. However, when one hovers over this line, one sees the breakdown of Defense Chance among the four attack types. While one cannot increase the chance of Tech or Force Defense Chance (i.e., Resistance) by adding Defense Rating, there are ways to increase it. One example is the 4-piece Rakata Supercommando's Gear set bonus, which grants 2% Defense Chance against all four attack types, including Tech and Force attacks. A character with this set bonus has a 2% chance to Defend against (i.e., Resist) Tech and Force attacks. Equivalently, Tech and Force attacks used against a player with this set bonus have a 2% chance to fail to hit that player.

If the foregoing is correct, then Tech (and Force) attacks are subject to Defense Chance.

The question remains what bosses' Defense Chances are. Indeed, it is possible that different bosses have different Defense Chances and that the same boss has different Defense Chances on different difficulty modes. More specifically, the question remains whether a given boss' Defense Chances are uniform across all four attack types, or whether, like many players, it has a higher Defense Chance against Melee and Ranged attacks than against Force and Tech Attacks, as might be the case if a boss is made to have the Defense Chance that it does in virtue of having Defense Rating rather than in virtue of having a particular buff or skill, à la the 4-piece Rakata Supercommando's Gear set bonus.


*I use the term "cosmetic" in order to indicate that the distinction which this term creates is a visual--rather than a mathematical--one, per Georg Zoeller, who wrote, "If [an attacker] misses because of the defense then the result varies based on the attack type, the cover state of the target, and the target's equipped weapons. All the possible results - Dodge, Parry, Deflect, Resist, Cover - are mathematically the same, but they can trigger different effects and are visualized in different ways."

[Freehugs]

(02-03-2012 08:53 AM)Skeleton Jack Wrote:  You can't base the entire theory of what the hit/miss cap is based off of one person's experience to begin with, let alone without any kind of evidence to support the claim.

An 8% hit cap should not be presented as fact because it's not. The defense and resistances of bosses could vary per difficulty or even per boss, we don't know. However Style's test is still the best information available, it's all we have to go on. Please feel free to do your own tests and add to the sum of knowledge here.

(02-03-2012 08:53 AM)Skeleton Jack Wrote:  I don't understand why you guys insist on Melee, Range, Force, and Tech. There are just 3 attack types in game. Normal, Force, and Tech.

"Normal" is a bad description too, better to call them Weapon attacks.
I'm happy to change things in my formula post if it makes them clearer. I could probably split the damage formula's in Force/Tech, and Weapon attacks, I'm eternally looking for ways to make that section less confusing.

[Kaedis]

Quote:If the foregoing is correct, then Tech (and Force) attacks are subject to Defense Chance.

You're technically right...sorta. Force and Tech attacks can be avoided via Resistance. However, there are precious few effects in game that actually grant Resistance, and thus far we've seen no evidence that any bosses have any Resist chance. When we say that Melee and Ranged are subject to Defense, we mean they are subject to Defense Rating, since the Resist portion of Defense essentially doesn't exist.

[Analysis]

(02-03-2012 10:27 AM)Kor Wrote:  

Quote:If the foregoing is correct, then Tech (and Force) attacks are subject to Defense Chance.

You're technically right...sorta. Force and Tech attacks can be avoided via Resistance. However, there are precious few effects in game that actually grant Resistance, and thus far we've seen no evidence that any bosses have any Resist chance. When we say that Melee and Ranged are subject to Defense, we mean they are subject to Defense Rating, since the Resist portion of Defense essentially doesn't exist.

Apologies if this is too much of a digression, but if you are correct, then does it not follow that most, if not all, the Accuracy on many classes' gear is virtually worthless (or at least significantly less valuable than alternative stats)?

For example, 6-7 pieces of Rakata Supercommando gear have Accuracy, while Shield Tech Powertechs, who are most likely to use these items, have only three Ranged (and zero Melee) attacks--Rapid Shots, Unload, and Rail Shot--only the last of which constitutes an appreciable part of their damage (and therefore threat) output. It seems mathematically unlikely that this amount of Accuracy could confer a large enough benefit upon these three abilities (given their priority positions in the rotation) to make it a worthwhile stat in comparison to alternative stats, especially when such a large portion of the item budget (or, more specifically in the case of the "body" pieces, the Enhancement budget) is spent on it. Are we to conclude that these pieces are extremely poorly itemized, to the point that a significant portion of the item budget is simply being wasted?



You wrote that "there are precious few effects in game that actually grant Resistance, and thus far we've seen no evidence that any bosses have any Resist chance." I agree that there are precious few effects among those which I have observed that grant Resistance Chance to players, but is there evidence that this is equally true of bosses? While we may not have any evidence that any bosses have any Resistance Chance, this does not entail that they do not have any. The additional questions we should be asking ourselves are:

1. Do we have any evidence that bosses do not have any Resistance Chance?
2. Do we have independent reasons for thinking that it is likely that bosses do or do not have any Resistance Chance? (For example, does it fall under a standard practice in designing MMO mechanics?)
3. If we do have such independent reasons, what are they, how much weight should we place on them, and why?

[LagunaD]

(02-03-2012 10:55 AM)Analysis Wrote:  Apologies if this is too much of a digression, but if you are correct, then does it not follow that most, if not all, the Accuracy on many classes' gear is virtually worthless (or at least significantly less valuable than alternative stats)?

Yes.