[Archive] Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage Lightning/Telekinetics Compendium

[Kalarie]

Anubis,

It seems possible that a character specced with a high crit rating will use FL quite a bit in the filler stage of casting, especially if specced into FL restoring force points.

I am having doubts about Chain Lightning though. The reason is that it hits up to 5 targets. If you are making pulls where you CC often, then CL seems like it could do more harm than good. But if the pulls don't require CC, then you can CL away assuming the tank holds aggro. It just doesn't feel like a spell you would throw into a single target raid boss rotation though.

Affliction is definitely shaping up to be our #1 priority. The fact it makes TB crit and it has the highest DPS output as well as proccing LB just make it seem like a no brainer. Can't wait to write a script for giving the dps chances of LB procs with FL based on crit ratings from Aff ticks. Still haven't seen anything about clipping yet, though I would clip even missing one tick if it prevented me from having 1-2 seconds of downtime on Aff.

FL having such a low force cost makes is seem like the filler but the 6 sec CD prevents that. Looks like FL procs and Lightning Strikes will definitely be our filler spells. Worst case we know Aff is #1 and LS is the last spell on our priority list. Just got to work out the in between now.

[Anubis Black]

I guess you mean a character with a lot of crit from gear, since you can't really be "specced with a high crit rating". In the provisional relative stat values I have not rated crit high and it is yet to be determined if this is correct or not. Either way, having a high amount of crit is good for every single ability, not only FL. High crit will mean more Aff crits thus more LB procs, but it's still limited to once every 10 seconds, so it kind of kills the idea of stacking crit to increase proc chances. In addition, the lack of talents enhancing Force Lightning leads me to the conclusion it will only be used on proc or for force regen in some situations. I do not see it as a filler, as I doubt it will provide high enough DPS unprocced to warrant its place as such.

As I stated, the use of CL seems really awkward to me too. But that's what the numbers say. I'm talking single target DPS, of course it will not be used in fights where there are CC'd targets around. And that's what's strange- it is actually part of a single target rotation, even though it is a form of AoE. Why? Well, 6% damage from Convection, 70% pushback reduction from Subversion, 50% crit damage bonus from Reverberating Force, 30% chance to proc another CL for additional 30% of the damage, stacking Conduction (probably highest priority) and last but not least Lightning Storm. Now because of the that last talent and the fact that LS is better for stacking Conduction, I assume CL will only be used upon LSm proc. This makes it the highest DPCT ability though, thus mandatory in a single target rotation. My take is, usable only on proc.

I'm not sure if you had a look at the talents and my explanations in this topic, since you seem to be basing your statements on my E3 dissection where I bashed LS for being bad. Now with the talents out, LS is THE filler. 6% damage from Convection, 70% pushback reduction from Subversion, procs LSm for instant CL costing 0 force and stacking Conduction with Forked Lightning. Definitely the filler to use. It might even be a good idea to spam LS at the start of the fight just to get 3 stacks of Conduction up and then continue on with the rotation, throwing in the occasional LS to keep the stacks from falling off.

Things have changed from my initial theorycrafting now that we have the talents. We just need some numbers to tweak it a bit, but the shape is there.

P.S. I just finished working on a Sorcerer talent calculator. If you could rotate your monitor 180 degrees it would look exactly like the one seen ingame. Can you please tell me if you see any obvious flaws and if everything seems correct? Most of the calculators had wrong links between talents and wrong positioning of some talents. Other than the icons (made hastily), does everything seem to be in order? http://war-tools.com/t73040.html

[Kalarie]

(08-09-2011 06:57 AM)Anubis Black Wrote:  I guess you mean a character with a lot of crit from gear, ...

...Other than the icons (made hastily), does everything seem to be in order? http://war-tools.com/t73040.html

The calculator looks correct. WoW icons made me laugh since the more I read about and watch clips of SWTOR the more I think I will not renew WoW when the SWTOR early access starts. Just can't bring myself to make anther raid team in WoW. Lost too many people already.

But yeah, I did mean crit from gear. When I said specced I was thinking of the reforging of stats or crafting of modifers etc.

[Anubis Black]

(08-10-2011 04:24 AM)Kalarie Wrote:  But yeah, I did mean crit from gear. When I said specced I was thinking of the reforging of stats or crafting of modifers etc.

Ah, great point about the modifiers. It's another system for min/maxing our characters that we need more information on. I guess first we have to get some endgame loot and then theorycraft about modifications.

[Pred]

Heres a spanner in the works.....I dont think theres a +crit stat (never once saw any). Theres Surge, which increases the effect of crits, but no way to increase your crit chance, other than what Willpower provides. I could be wrong of course though

[Anubis Black]

Hm, what about these two items that provide +Critical Rating:

http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...VItem1.jpg
http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...VItem2.jpg

Also, on the paper doll we see Force Critical Chance http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...1/08/5.jpg and Melee Critical Chance http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...1/08/8.jpg both being affected by +Critical Rating from gear. Has this been completely scrapped? How does Surge affect crits?

[Pred]

Like I said I may be wrong. As for Surge, exactly as I said, it increases the size of crits. Thats actually all it does. Id imagine it will be a very nice stat for those who have increased crit chance via talent procs (like WoW's frost DK) or high passive crit chance (like WoW's druid cats).

EDIT - that that UI in the pic look old? Maybe an old build.

[Undead Prince]

Hey there, if I may, I'd like to put forward a few pertinent questions regarding the Sorc DPS talents.

But first of all, let me say that you've got amazing analysis going on here, the best I've seen so far on the web, and I'm proud to join Sithwarrior.com :-)

Now, to the questions.

1. Are the DoTs considered to be "attacking" for the purposes of critical strikes every time they "tick" (e.g. every second when a new dose of damage is dealt to the target), or only once when the spell is first cast? Because in light of talents like Parasitism, which gives 1% of your total health and force each time a DoT crits, that can be really important.

Assuming you've got 2 DoTs going on (e.g. Affliction and Crushing Darkness), and both "attack" every second, with a reasonable 20% crit chance that would mean you'll get 24 "heals/force boosts" every minute, each giving you 1% of your total life and force, which is a lot even for the 26th lvl Sorc we've seen in the dev video: he'd be getting 1176 hp and 144 fp per minute, whereas for instance a 50th level char, with something like 10,000 hp and 1,000 fp (not unreasonable judging from the mid-level stats shown in videos) it would climb up to 2,400 hp and 240 fp per minute: a very substantial boost indeed!

Also, Affliction crits give you Lighting Barrage, so not only you get free hp and fp, but you also attack faster with one of the most damaging spells in game.

OTOH, if the DoTs are only checked for crit once per casting, then Parasitism is about 15 times weaker and probably not worth the skill points, and Lightning Barrage also becomes negligibly rare.

2. I've been partial to the "Madness" tree and more specifically the "Madness" talent ever since they were revealed/leaked. However, the very strict leveling system does not allow one to reach "Madness" the talent and at the same time have the most powerful talent in 1 of the other 2 trees, and a purely "Madness"-tree build does seem kind of inferior to both a focused Lightning DPSer and a focused Corruption healer.

But, for early-to-middle game, the Madness talent is IMHO simply amazing. Force Lightning is, according to various calculations, one of the most powerful direct damage abilities, and it's also ridiculously cheap (only 15 fp), which, taking into accound the 8 fp/sec recharge and Sith Efficacy giving you 1% of your force pool back every time you hit with a FL, allows for unlimited spamming. The drawbacks are 1) channeling time, and 2) single-target only. 1) is mitigated by Lighting Barrage (which again puts before us the question of how often crits are calculated for DoTs). 2) is both a drawback and a benefit: no AoE means you won't interrupt your own or your allies' CC, allowing large-scale Whirlwind or Nightmare action and then taking the enemies off 1 by 1.

Yet, will FL be viable enough at later stages to justify staying with this build and forego the ultimate talents, or will you be forced to respec because the high-tier talents are simply much more amazing? Will it be enough for high-level PvP and PvE, considering its paralysis ability works only on standard & weak enemies, and the channeling part means (I assume) that it can't be cast on the move thus no kiting?

If these questions were already asked & answered, I apologize and would appreciate pointing me in the right direction. Thanks, and please continue your excellent theorycrafting!

[Alratan]

This is probably more suited to the talent discussion, which has its own thread, but I'll answer anyway.

(08-10-2011 07:56 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  1. Are the DoTs considered to be "attacking" for the purposes of critical strikes every time they "tick" (e.g. every second when a new dose of damage is dealt to the target), or only once when the spell is first cast? Because in light of talents like Parasitism, which gives 1% of your total health and force each time a DoT crits, that can be really important.

I would assume that it has a separate chance every tick, as with most other games of the genre, especially as it makes a lot more sense. Each instance of damage (each tick) has a separate chance to crit. If it didn't, people might continually refresh DoTs to reach a lucky critting DoT-cast (if every tick was based off the initial tick). The same is true for HoTs.

(08-10-2011 07:56 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  Assuming you've got 2 DoTs going on (e.g. Affliction and Crushing Darkness), and both "attack" every second, with a reasonable 20% crit chance that would mean you'll get 24 "heals/force boosts" every minute, each giving you 1% of your total life and force, which is a lot even for the 26th lvl Sorc we've seen in the dev video: he'd be getting 1176 hp and 144 fp per minute, whereas for instance a 50th level char, with something like 10,000 hp and 1,000 fp (not unreasonable judging from the mid-level stats shown in videos) it would climb up to 2,400 hp and 240 fp per minute: a very substantial boost indeed!

DoTs in most games don't tick every second - 2 to 4 seconds is far more likely. With a duration of 15s for Affliction (21 talented), I'd say that it would have 3 second ticks, as other factors won't work. This reduces the numbers to far more reasonable amounts. Additionally, we don't know if 20% is reasonable, especially as there is some debate over whether Crit Rating even exists as a stat, and there are no skills to improve the crit rate of DoTs. It's possible that crit chance could be far lower than 20%. 5-10% wouldn't be unreasonable.

(08-10-2011 07:56 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  Also, Affliction crits give you Lighting Barrage, so not only you get free hp and fp, but you also attack faster with one of the most damaging spells in game.

Yep, it's part of why Affliction is so good!

For the rest, I agree. For levelling, the Madness tree is an incredibly good option for Sorcerers. I also think it'll be very good for PvP with the drains and greatly enhanced CC. It will probably also be very good for large amounts of trash in instances, too, with Opressing Force, Haunted Dreams and Deathfield. Depends very much on how much weak and standard mobs are a part of important/difficult battles.

[Undead Prince]

(08-10-2011 08:30 PM)Alratan Wrote:  This is probably more suited to the talent discussion, which has its own thread, but I'll answer anyway.

Thanks for the expedient answer, Alratan! Why I posted here and not there was because that thread appeared to have been abandoned (last post 10 days ago) and superceded by this one with regard to the Sorc DPS abilities, which I was asking about.

Quote:I would assume that it has a separate chance every tick, as with most other games of the genre, especially as it makes a lot more sense. Each instance of damage (each tick) has a separate chance to crit. If it didn't, people might continually refresh DoTs to reach a lucky critting DoT-cast (if every tick was based off the initial tick). The same is true for HoTs.

That is good to hear, and really lends value to the various abilities keyed off DoT crits (such as Parasitism & Lightning Barrage). It would mean these abilities are worthy of skill points investment, and would increase the comparative value of items that add to critical chance.

Quote:DoTs in most games don't tick every second - 2 to 4 seconds is far more likely. With a duration of 15s for Affliction (21 talented), I'd say that it would have 3 second ticks, as other factors won't work. This reduces the numbers to far more reasonable amounts.

Are there any sources of concrete info on this? Have we ever seen DoTs in play during one of the dev videos, for instance? Because if a DoT (any DoT, not necessarily an SI one) was captured on vid, it would be possible to glean its mechanic from the damage numbers appearing above the affected targets.

3 seconds seems to be alot for a game that deals with 1/10 and even 1/100 of a second increments (e.g. Dark Mending reducing the cast time of Dark Infusion by 0.25 second). It seems a relatively large gap in an otherwise very fast-paced combat system. But I agree that the resulting benefits from crit-linked abilities do seem more "reasonable" than having possibility of crits every second or so. It would, however, drop Parasitism, LB & the like from "amazing" to merely "reasonably effective". And I'm hungry for real loopholes/advantages :-)

Quote:Additionally, we don't know if 20% is reasonable, especially as there is some debate over whether Crit Rating even exists as a stat, and there are no skills to improve the crit rate of DoTs. It's possible that crit chance could be far lower than 20%. 5-10% wouldn't be unreasonable.

We've seen screens with 20-ish level chars having 10% Force crit chance simply from levels, with additional 4-5% chance from gear, and this probably without specifically building towards a higher crit percentage. I'd say based on this info 20% crit chance at lvl 50 is actually at the lower end of reasonable, and may be substantially higher if you actively build towards it (unless the devs change the current approach, which is always possible).

Quote:Yep, it's part of why Affliction is so good!

Yes, but does it justify investing points in Parasitism, for example? Some of the DPS builds I've seen posted here and in other places don't do it, but for me this mechanic is simply too juicy with promise to pass up without very serious consideration.

Quote:For the rest, I agree. For levelling, the Madness tree is an incredibly good option for Sorcerers. I also think it'll be very good for PvP with the drains and greatly enhanced CC. It will probably also be very good for large amounts of trash in instances, too, with Opressing Force, Haunted Dreams and Deathfield. Depends very much on how much weak and standard mobs are a part of important/difficult battles.

So do you think a Ranged DPS Sorc focusing on Madness is viable? Do we have any more number-crunching and fact-grinding on the other Madness abilities, such as Death Field and this curious Deathmark mechanic? How exactly does Calculating Mind work anyway, what does "consuming a Deathmark" involve?

Answers beget more questions :-) But hey, there's human nature for you.