[Archive] Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage Lightning/Telekinetics Compendium

[Anubis Black]

(08-10-2011 08:30 PM)Alratan Wrote:  This is probably more suited to the talent discussion, which has its own thread, but I'll answer anyway.

It definitely is, but since we already started discussing talents here and the two topics are somewhat intechangeable if we discuss abilities AND talents, we might as well.

Welcome, Undead Prince,

I'm glad you like the analysis and discussions, it's only the beginning though and we are working with limited information. So imagine how much more we can do the closer we get to release and afterwards.

1. Yes. Talents such as Parasitism and LB refer to tick crits. You can infer this not only from other MMOs but also looking at Aff, which doesn't have a direct damage component and is strictly a DoT effect. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

DoTs do not tick every second. Since Aff lasts 15 seconds, it is very likely it will tick every 3 seconds. Especially considering it's increased duration by 3 per talent point (i.e. by a tick per talent point).

(08-10-2011 08:30 PM)Alratan Wrote:  Additionally, we don't know if 20% is reasonable, especially as there is some debate over whether Crit Rating even exists as a stat, and there are no skills to improve the crit rate of DoTs. It's possible that crit chance could be far lower than 20%. 5-10% wouldn't be unreasonable.

Actually, 20% might be low. As we see here: http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...1/08/5.jpg 10% is Base crit. And 5% at lvl. 25 means 10%+ in pre- Ops gear or better. Thus we might be looking at 25%- 30% crit chance if nothing changes.

As for the Parasitism suggestion, a tick every 3 seconds, assuming both Aff and CD have 100% uptime, this means 40 ticks per minute total. With a 20% crit chance this comes to 8% mana returns on average. But what you have to consider is that we can choose Parasitism only over Sith Efficacy. So it is a direct comparison between the two. Disregarding the pushback reduction to CD (which is a DPS boost), Sith Efficacy also gives 100% chance when FL deals damage to return 1% of your total force. FL ticks 4 times for the duration of the channel (observed in the Tatooine walkthrough), so this is 4% total force per use of FL. So as long as we cast FL more than twice per minute, it is much more beneficial to choose Sith Efficacy over Parasitism. The hp gain from Parasitism SCREAMS tanking/PvP talent.

2. Madness is a good tree for levelling. But I wouldn't even discuss that part of the game, since it is not Theorycrafting- worthy. As I told MK yesterday when we were discussing Kaladris' post in the IA Operative topic, I can leave my sister to play my character and she will eventually level it up. It's pretty much a joke, something that poses no real challenge. I can see how the "most optimal levelling spec" might involve some form of TC but I still believe it's not worth the time. Let's focus on endgame single target DPS and if Bioware completely changes "the game" to AoE or some other form of encounters, then we can discuss that. Using CC and the likes is for flashpoints and trash. The game shapes to be casual enough so that I already die a little bit on the inside. Leave my hopes for endgame bosses at least. It's all that's keeping me "interested" in the game.

And no, taking the Madness talent will not be worth in a cookie- cutter single target DPS talent build, since TB is possibly the highest DPS ability we have (otherwise its position as ultimate talent is totally unwaranted and a sign of bad tree design). As already stated FL will probably only be worth casting with the LB proc, since as you correctly point out, having to stand in one place for 6 seconds (of course it cannot be cast on the move, only instants can) is not a good idea, considering incoming raid damage.

[Alratan]

(08-10-2011 09:43 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  3 seconds seems to be alot for a game that deals with 1/10 and even 1/100 of a second increments (e.g. Dark Mending reducing the cast time of Dark Infusion by 0.25 second).

It's pretty common, and there's no reason to think it isn't the case here, especially with possible DoT duration factors.

(08-10-2011 09:43 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  It would, however, drop Parasitism, LB & the like from "amazing" to merely "reasonably effective".

Yep, which makes perfect sense, otherwise it would be far too good. As it stands, Parasitism is useful for some builds, but not others.

(08-10-2011 09:43 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  Actually, 20% might be low. As we see here: http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...1/08/5.jpg 10% is Base crit. And 5% at lvl. 25 means 10%+ in pre- Ops gear or better. Thus we might be looking at 25%- 30% crit chance if nothing changes.

(08-10-2011 10:01 PM)Anubis Black Wrote:  Actually, 20% might be low. As we see here: http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...1/08/5.jpg 10% is Base crit. And 5% at lvl. 25 means 10%+ in pre- Ops gear or better. Thus we might be looking at 25%- 30% crit chance if nothing changes.

This is incredibly crit-heavy, especially for a game which is trying to shy away from quick PvP combats. Quite interesting. Also makes those on-crit skills much, much stronger, and they would already be good at low rates.

(08-10-2011 09:43 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  Yes, but does it justify investing points in Parasitism, for example?

It does for a PvP build, where the life restoration will be very useful and you can't sit around to channel Force Lightning. I can also vaguely consider a use as a kiting strategy in raids (think of Vashj from WoW, if you're familiar with the fight), but I can't see it being that useful as a standard raiding build.

(08-10-2011 09:43 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  So do you think a Ranged DPS Sorc focusing on Madness is viable? Do we have any more number-crunching and fact-grinding on the other Madness abilities, such as Death Field and this curious Deathmark mechanic? How exactly does Calculating Mind work anyway, what does "consuming a Deathmark" involve?

For single-target DPS (which makes up most traditional raiding), probably not, as Anubis Black points out. As I said, though, if there is a lot of AoE involved, I can see it being very useful for certain encounters with AoE CC and life drains to avoid being overwhelmed by trash hits.

[Undead Prince]

(08-10-2011 10:01 PM)Anubis Black Wrote:  Welcome, Undead Prince,

I'm glad you like the analysis and discussions, it's only the beginning though and we are working with limited information. So imagine how much more we can do the closer we get to release and afterwards.

I like this part of theorycrafting before actual game release, it takes the edge off waiting for the game to come out :-) I've done the same for all of Bioware's latest RPG titles - both Mass Effects & both Dragon Ages, and it was fun + prepared us well for the game, since unfortunately Bioware's not known for in-depth manuals and explanations of mechanics so we had to figure out most stuff by ourselves.

Quote:1. Yes. Talents such as Parasitism and LB refer to tick crits. You can infer this not only from other MMOs but also looking at Aff, which doesn't have a direct damage component and is strictly a DoT effect. It wouldn't make sense otherwise.

Well, it could calculate the entire "attack" (including the critical) at the moment you cast the spell, and then simply divide the resulting damage across 15 seconds, rather than treat every "tick" as a separate "attack" with its own critical chance. It would make a certain kind of sense and probably be easier from the standpoint of computer calculations. But if it's not this way in other MMOs (I'm not a big MMO player, fan of classic old-school RPGs actually) then Bioware probably went with the crowd like they did with so much other mechanical stuff.

Quote:DoTs do not tick every second. Since Aff lasts 15 seconds, it is very likely it will tick every 3 seconds. Especially considering it's increased duration by 3 per talent point (i.e. by a tick per talent point).

That's a very good point, you're right, Affliction upgrades deal with 3-second increments, so it would make sense that this is the "tick" delay.

However, following the same logic, Crushing Darkness ticks at 1,5 second increments since that's the bonus offered by Lingering Nightmares!

If 3 sec is correct, considering 2 DoTs always running, that would give us a good chance to regain 1% of hp/fp and get LB every 1,5 seconds. Not bad at all, and probly definitely worth of investing points in Parasitism, Barrage & +crit items, especially considering the ungodly amounts of health chars seem to be getting (26 lvl chars with close to 5,000 hp).

If 1,5 sec is correct, then the bonuses from Parasitism & barrage & +crit items seem to become awesome.

Quote:Actually, 20% might be low. As we see here: http://www.sithwarrior.com/wp-content/up...1/08/5.jpg 10% is Base crit. And 5% at lvl. 25 means 10%+ in pre- Ops gear or better. Thus we might be looking at 25%- 30% crit chance if nothing changes.

Yep, exactly! Maybe even higher if we specifically build towards +crit chance (stack items etc.).

Quote:As for the Parasitism suggestion, a tick every 3 seconds, assuming both Aff and CD have 100% uptime, this means 40 ticks per minute total. With a 20% crit chance this comes to 8% mana returns on average. But what you have to consider is that we can choose Parasitism only over Sith Efficacy. So it is a direct comparison between the two. Disregarding the pushback reduction to CD (which is a DPS boost), Sith Efficacy also gives 100% chance when FL deals damage to return 1% of your total force. FL ticks 4 times for the duration of the channel (observed in the Tatooine walkthrough), so this is 4% total force per use of FL. So as long as we cast FL more than twice per minute, it is much more beneficial to choose Sith Efficacy over Parasitism. The hp gain from Parasitism SCREAMS tanking/PvP talent.

Wait, why does Parasitism exclude taking Sith Efficacy? P. has 2 ranks and SE has 3, so you can take both without spending more than 5 skill points on the second level of the Madness tree. OFC, with the new data that Chain Shock is a prereq for Madness, you'd have to sink points there as well :-( which is a sad waste IMO.

BUT (and this is also an interesting question): wouldn't having more than 5 points in level 2 talents decrease the relevant requirements for higher-level talents? E.g. in the talent calculator, if I invest 8 points in level 2, I only need to invest 2 points in level 3 in order to open up level 4 - i.e. the game wants a certain number of total points invested into a talent tree, not necessarily 5 in each level. That would allow me to avoid the undesirable talents in order to focus on the useful abilities instead. Is that how it really works?

And I'm not sure the Sorc will ever be ready to tank. We've seen in the Tattoine Sorc demo how the guy with an ungodly 4,880+ health was quickly shot down to almost 0 health by a couple of ordinary-looking mobs. Parasitism may be an essential element of Sorc survival in such harsh reality, but I doubt it will ever give him the ability to actually tank.

Quote:2. Madness is a good tree for levelling. But I wouldn't even discuss that part of the game, since it is not Theorycrafting- worthy. As I told MK yesterday when we were discussing Kaladris' post in the IA Operative topic, I can leave my sister to play my character and she will eventually level it up. It's pretty much a joke, something that poses no real challenge. I can see how the "most optimal levelling spec" might involve some form of TC but I still believe it's not worth the time. Let's focus on endgame single target DPS and if Bioware completely changes "the game" to AoE or some other form of encounters, then we can discuss that. Using CC and the likes is for flashpoints and trash. The game shapes to be casual enough so that I already die a little bit on the inside. Leave my hopes for endgame bosses at least. It's all that's keeping me "interested" in the game.

I can certainly respect that! Not being a hardcore MMO player myself, my interest is rather more evenly spread across leveling and endgame PVE/PVP, but I can see how the level grinding may be boring for advanced MMO players.

However, wouldn't an efficient leveling strategy get you to the top faster and thus make you "top dog" at least until everyone else grinds up as well? Also getting you more & better loot in the process?

Quote:And no, taking the Madness talent will not be worth in a cookie- cutter single target DPS talent build, since TB is possibly the highest DPS ability we have (otherwise its position as ultimate talent is totally unwaranted and a sign of bad tree design). As already stated FL will probably only be worth casting with the LB proc, since as you correctly point out, having to stand in one place for 6 seconds (of course it cannot be cast on the move, only instants can) is not a good idea, considering incoming raid damage.

TB has a 2 second casting time (vs. 3 seconds for FL, or 1,5 seconds for LBFL) and a 9 sec cooldown. Seeing how the casting time is on top of the cooldown and not subsumed in it (see the Tattoine sorc video), it means TB will only be castable once every 11 seconds. It is single target (not AoE), has the same 30ft range as FL, and its base damage is nothing special, severely eclipsed even by the likes of Chain Lightning and Death Field. Its shining point is the +50% critical damage and the automatic critical from Affliction: but from what we've seen of Force Lightning, it actually does comparable damage even taking into account TB's additional critical boosts. TB also bears a hefty cost of 45 fp to cast, and with a 2 sec casting time is not castable on the move.

At the same time, "Madnessed" FL:

- at base, can be cast 20 times per minute compared to TB's 5-6 times;
- with a reasonable 25% crit chance can be cast 25 times per minute via LB;
- with 2 points in Wrath, 30% of my Force Lightnings will be cast instantly AND deal +20% damage: thus bringing up the total number of FLs per minute up to 32-33!
- the new INSTANT Force Lightnings AGAIN have a chance to give LB, increasing the Rate of fire even more;
- the new LB Force Lightnings AGAIN have a 30% chance to give Wrath (Achilles & the turtle anyone?)
- more attacks mean more chances to get Lightning Effusion which can be used to halve the cost of your more force-intensive abilities (such as Death Field) and FL itself;
- FL is ridiculously cheap (15 fp) + basically pays for itself with Sith Efficacy;
- FL has the added effects of slowing ANY target by 50%, and paralyzing weak\standard targets.

If we go beyond directly comparing these 2 spells, then ofc it has to be said that between TB cooldowns you're free to cast other spells (including the same FL). But:

- casting TB 5-6 times per minute will eat up a hefty chunk of your force pool;
- other Lightning spells such as CL are also rather expensive;
- FL is not as efficient without the Madness upgrades, and has a 6 sec cooldown of its own to deal with;
- a Madness sorc has his own interesting spells to spice up his repertoire, such as the Death Field + Deathmark + Calculating Mind combo;
- all key attack abilities from the Lightning tree (Chain Lightning, TB) are with a casting time; Madness has powerful instant attacks such as Death Field.

So, unless TB will do a LOT more damage than FL/Death Field, going the FL/Madness route may actually be viable for a DPS Sorc? Here's a tentative build of what I'm talking about.

As we don't really know the EXACT correlation between TB and FL's damage, let's compare TB with Death Field, for instance:

1. Damage:
1.1 Basic: TB = 161 average/single target, DF = 241/per up to 3 targets (so up to 723 damage total) PLUS 30 hp healed/per up to 3 targets (so up to 90 healing)
1.2 With some of the essential modifiers:
TB: 161 +6% from Convection + autocrit from Affliction (+100% damage including Convection bonus) + 50% crit damage bonus = 425 damage vs. 1 target;
DF: basically the same 723 damage total + up to 120 hp healed with Devour + the entire Deathmark mechanic (hard to calculate exactly).

2. Casting time: DF is INSTANT = clear win over TB with its 2 sec casting time.

3. Cooldown: TB = 9 sec, DF = 15 sec; TB wins, but this doesn't mean much considering the FL strategy outlined above (we don't really NEED to cast DF very often, we have FL for that).

I think it's not easy to say whether TB is fundamentally better than the FL + DF combo in the big picture (taking in mind sustainable DPS, maneuverability & self-healing/force pool replenishment).

Sorry if any of the above seems presumptious, I'm just kind of hyped up by all of the new info on game mechanics we've been receiving recently.

[Anubis Black]

Undead Prince, I admire your interest in Theorycrafting, but I advise you to have a look at some guides for Theorycrafting basics. MMORPG TC is quite different from RPG TC and I'm sure you will in time find out why. To start off, check http://www.sithwarrior.com/2011/06/theor...fficients/ and I'd suggest searching for DoT mechanics and generally improving single target DPS for endgame bosses.

Parasitism excludes Sith Efficacy and it is explained in the Talent dissection as well as the Sorc DPS Compendium. We have 41 talent points to spend, 31 in the Lightning tree and 2 in Will of the Sith (Corruption tree). So we have 8 points left in the Madness tree, 5 of which in the first tier (Haunting Presence) and 3 left in the second tier (Sith Efficacy). If you choose to take Parasitism, you ultimately decide between not taking TB (which I will later on explain why has to be mandatory), not taking Will of the Sith (4% Willpower, possibly the biggest DPS increase of all) and Sith Efficacy. Since I already said the first two are mandatory the choice is between Sith Efficacy and Parasitism, SE being the clear winner.

By saying Parasitism is a tank talent, I mean it is not good for a Sorc DPS talent build. Since it is in the shared tree, it is possible to be taken by a Darkness Tankasin, or eventually part of a PvP build. Talents that give you health back are utility talents, that are not mathematically the best to spend points in. They are usually tanking/PvP as already stated.

"However, wouldn't an efficient leveling strategy get you to the top faster and thus make you "top dog" at least until everyone else grinds up as well? Also getting you more & better loot in the process?"

No. Everyone will be top level. That's where the game starts. It does not matter how fast you level up, since in a few months time, there will be no players lower than lvl. 50. That's how MMOs work. Being "top dog" has no meaning in a team based e- sport (my view of competitive raiding). And everyone gets the same loot while levelling. The gear differences come from raiding (or Operations). The people who are skilled will kill the hard bosses that less skilled players can't and will have access to better gear. That's all at max lvl. Everything beforehand is flavour and to an extent pointless in a hardcore player's eyes.

Why TB has to be mandatory? Because it is the ultimate talent in the tree. If it isn't, its a sign of bad talent tree design. You can check any talent tree of any class in e.g. WoW over the years (every expansion pack/patch) and the instances where the ultimate talent is skipped can be counted on the fingers of one of your hands. The reason mathematically though for using TB is "ability coefficient". You can read about it in the article linked, or elsewhere on MMO casting mechanics. TB will (must) have an amazingly high coefficient and at max level with all the +Willpower and +Force Power gear it should be the hardest hitting ability in our arsenal. Or, again, it will be a bad design choice.

Also, you seem to not fully understand how cooldowns (cds) work. In TB's case the ability has a 2 seconds casting time and 9 seconds cd, meaning when you start casting at time 0 the cd of the ability triggers. So when you finish your cast at time 2sec. the cd remaining is 7 seconds. The +50% bonus critical damage means it will crit for twice the amount stated, and that will happen every time, since Aff will be kept up 100% of the time. You need to check how critical strikes work as well, I'm not sure I explained it well enough in the article.

As for FL, it will have a very low ability coefficient. Why? Because of the slowing effect. You have to read up on that as well. A good example I can think of is the Frostbolt that Frost Mages have (in WoW). Because it has the slowing effect, it suffers a severe penalty, greatly decreasing its bonus damage. So this, coupled with the high TB coefficient really speaks against your claims.

Force cost concerns should only be considered for very very long encounters (10- 15min.). To counter them, there are 4 talents in the build suggested that enhance not only your force pool, but your force regen as well. If force is an issue even after taking those talents, then additional discussions can arise.

You don't get Death Field as Lightning Sorc. Madness build is not worth discussing for a single target cookie- cutter DPS build due to two major factors. The main ability of the tree is an AoE and the tree is shared, meaning it enhances a hybrid spec, rather than create a spec of its own. Viable =/= optimal.

[Alratan]

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  Well, it could calculate the entire "attack" (including the critical) at the moment you cast the spell, and then simply divide the resulting damage across 15 seconds, rather than treat every "tick" as a separate "attack" with its own critical chance. It would make a certain kind of sense and probably be easier from the standpoint of computer calculations. But if it's not this way in other MMOs (I'm not a big MMO player, fan of classic old-school RPGs actually) then Bioware probably went with the crowd like they did with so much other mechanical stuff.

This is the standard, so it's extremely likely that they'll follow it.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  However, following the same logic, Crushing Darkness ticks at 1,5 second increments since that's the bonus offered by Lingering Nightmares!

It could be that they wanted players to spend 2 skill points on it instead of 1, despite only offering a single tick extra. I'm not overly familiar with Crushing Darkness, though.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  If 3 sec is correct, considering 2 DoTs always running, that would give us a good chance to regain 1% of hp/fp and get LB every 1,5 seconds. Not bad at all, and probly definitely worth of investing points in Parasitism, Barrage & +crit items, especially considering the ungodly amounts of health chars seem to be getting (26 lvl chars with close to 5,000 hp).

Roughly 0.5% force recovery every 3 seconds, or 10% every minute, assuming a 25% crit chance, which is very good. Not necessarily better than Force Lightning, though, as Anubis Black detailed.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  Wait, why does Parasitism exclude taking Sith Efficacy? P. has 2 ranks and SE has 3, so you can take both without spending more than 5 skill points on the second level of the Madness tree. OFC, with the new data that Chain Shock is a prereq for Madness, you'd have to sink points there as well :-( which is a sad waste IMO.

If you're going for at least 31 points in Lightning, which seems very likely for a dps raiding setup and is most likely what Anubis Black is assuming, finding the points spare for both Sith Efficacy and Parasitism will be an exact match, but will probably make you miss out on skills at least as good elsewhere. You won't be able to take Seeping Darkness in Corruption, for instance. Madness can't be taken anyway with 31 points in Lightning, so that's not an issue.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  BUT (and this is also an interesting question): wouldn't having more than 5 points in level 2 talents decrease the relevant requirements for higher-level talents? E.g. in the talent calculator, if I invest 8 points in level 2, I only need to invest 2 points in level 3 in order to open up level 4 - i.e. the game wants a certain number of total points invested into a talent tree, not necessarily 5 in each level. That would allow me to avoid the undesirable talents in order to focus on the useful abilities instead. Is that how it really works?

That is exactly how it works, yes. Each tier requires an extra 5 skill points, but it doesn't matter which tier it's from.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  And I'm not sure the Sorc will ever be ready to tank.

It's highly unlikely that they will, but Madness is a tree shared with Assassins, who can. Whether Parasitism is actually useful for Darkness Assassins (tanks) is another kettle of fish, however.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  However, wouldn't an efficient leveling strategy get you to the top faster and thus make you "top dog" at least until everyone else grinds up as well? Also getting you more & better loot in the process?

Levelling strategy, yes, but not really heavy build optimisation. Unless your build is incredibly awful (probably with no points spent), levelling is rarely difficult in many games. This seems even more true in SW:TOR given the companions. The major aspects to strategise when levelling fast are avoiding dull/long quests, and ensuring minimum travel times. It's not really the same as theorycrafting for high-level PvE or PvP play, though.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  TB has a 2 second casting time (vs. 3 seconds for FL, or 1,5 seconds for LBFL) and a 9 sec cooldown. Seeing how the casting time is on top of the cooldown and not subsumed in it (see the Tattoine sorc video), it means TB will only be castable once every 11 seconds. It is single target (not AoE), has the same 30ft range as FL, and its base damage is nothing special, severely eclipsed even by the likes of Chain Lightning and Death Field. Its shining point is the +50% critical damage and the automatic critical from Affliction: but from what we've seen of Force Lightning, it actually does comparable damage even taking into account TB's additional critical boosts. TB also bears a hefty cost of 45 fp to cast, and with a 2 sec casting time is not castable on the move.

Don't forget 9% reduction in Force costs from Electric Induction, making TB cost 41 Force. With Convection, and assuming Convection, and assuming that base critical damage is +50%, and assuming that you'd only target something which had Affliction on it, TB will deal (161.5 damage * 1.06) * 2 = 342.38 damage on average, at DPF of 8.35.

With Lightning Effusion, your next two force attacks will cost 0 force, so it's possible that reacting to this buff will be a key part of the rotation as well.

Not being able to cast on the move is not very important for most PvE, and at worst makes it no better than Force Lightning, as that is channeled.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  At the same time, "Madnessed" FL:

- at base, can be cast 20 times per minute compared to TB's 5-6 times;
- with a reasonable 25% crit chance can be cast 25 times per minute via LB;
- is ridiculously cheap (15 fp) + basically pays for itself with Sith Efficacy;
- has the added effects of slowing ANY target by 50%, and paralyzing weak\standard targets;
- more attacks mean more chances to get Lightning Effusion which can be used to halve the cost of your more force-intensive abilities (such as Death Field).

It's difficult to speculate too much without having numbers for Force Lightning (I can't find very recent, base damage and force cost), alas. Note that the number of casts per minute is pretty irrelevant, unless it does far more DPF. If I had an ability which had no cooldown and a 1.5s, but did 1 damage and cost 1 Force DPF, it is not any better due to the low cooldown.

In raiding, you won't necessarily want to use Death Field due to it being AoE and potentially breaking CC. That said, there may be some other high-force abilities which greatly benefit from Lightning Effusion. A Lightning Sorcerer won't use TB all of the time, though, and will probably have quite a few chances to crit and therefore proc LE, so I don't really see this as a plus either.

(08-10-2011 11:11 PM)Undead Prince Wrote:  - casting TB 5-6 times per minute will eat up a hefty chunk of your force pool;
- other Lightning spells such as CL are also rather expensive;
- FL is not as efficient without the Madness upgrades, and has a 6 sec cooldown of its own to deal with;
- a Madness sorc has his own interesting spells to spice up his repertoire, such as the Death Field + Deathmark + Calculating Mind combo;
- all key attack abilities from the Lightning tree (Chain Lightning, TB) are with a casting time; Madness has powerful instant attacks such as Death Field.

LE eliminates lots of the problems with Force pool elimination. Furthermore, the converse argument is that your strategy of Madness-enhanced Force Lightning spam has far more Force regeneration than it could possibly use.

[Undead Prince]

(08-10-2011 11:59 PM)Anubis Black Wrote:  Undead Prince, I admire your interest in Theorycrafting, but I advise you to have a look at some guides for Theorycrafting basics. MMORPG TC is quite different from RPG TC and I'm sure you will in time find out why. To start off, check http://www.sithwarrior.com/2011/06/theor...fficients/ and I'd suggest searching for DoT mechanics and generally improving single target DPS for endgame bosses.

Thanks, I'll be sure to look into that!

Quote:Parasitism excludes Sith Efficacy and it is explained in the Talent dissection as well as the Sorc DPS Compendium. We have 41 talent points to spend, 31 in the Lightning tree and 2 in Will of the Sith (Corruption tree). So we have 8 points left in the Madness tree, 5 of which in the first tier (Haunting Presence) and 3 left in the second tier (Sith Efficacy). If you choose to take Parasitism, you ultimately decide between not taking TB (which I will later on explain why has to be mandatory), not taking Will of the Sith (4% Willpower, possibly the biggest DPS increase of all) and Sith Efficacy. Since I already said the first two are mandatory the choice is between Sith Efficacy and Parasitism, SE being the clear winner.

Well, if you're talking about a specific build (the one which spens 2 points in Corruption, for instance), then of course you are correct. I simply thought we were talking in broader terms, not tied to one concrete build.

Quote:By saying Parasitism is a tank talent, I mean it is not good for a Sorc DPS talent build. Since it is in the shared tree, it is possible to be taken by a Darkness Tankasin, or eventually part of a PvP build. Talents that give you health back are utility talents, that are not mathematically the best to spend points in. They are usually tanking/PvP as already stated.

Doesn't even a DPS "glass cannon" need to take survivability into account? From what we've seen of gameplay footage, incoming damage can be rather vicious even for a decked-out char with lots of +END items. Wouldn't more hp AND more force points via parasitism make you stronger as a DPS machine, both in terms of ability to withstand damage and deal out more of it?

Quote:No. Everyone will be top level. That's where the game starts. It does not matter how fast you level up, since in a few months time, there will be no players lower than lvl. 50. That's how MMOs work. Being "top dog" has no meaning in a team based e- sport (my view of competitive raiding). And everyone gets the same loot while levelling. The gear differences come from raiding (or Operations). The people who are skilled will kill the hard bosses that less skilled players can't and will have access to better gear. That's all at max lvl. Everything beforehand is flavour and to an extent pointless in a hardcore player's eyes.

OK, I can definitely see your point and what you expect from a build.

Quote:Why TB has to be mandatory? Because it is the ultimate talent in the tree. If it isn't, its a sign of bad talent tree design.

Bioware has repeatedly stated that they're also accomodating "hybrid" players. And isn't part of the fun in optimization to discover some combos which give surprising advantages?

TB is definitely the "ultimate" talent for the Lightning tree. However, if you take the SI/Sorc as a whole, there are a lot of options, and some of them MAY be as powerful as taking an "ultimate" talent. After all, we still spend the same amount of points, right? So "good" design would mean that even a "hybrid" char, if thoughfully built, can fulfil the intended goals.

Quote:You can check any talent tree of any class in e.g. WoW over the years (every expansion pack/patch) and the instances where the ultimate talent is skipped can be counted on the fingers of one of your hands. The reason mathematically though for using TB is "ability coefficient". You can read about it in the article linked, or elsewhere on MMO casting mechanics. TB will (must) have an amazingly high coefficient and at max level with all the +Willpower and +Force Power gear it should be the hardest hitting ability in our arsenal. Or, again, it will be a bad design choice.

It's hard to say without actually having access to the full game numbers, but based on what we have so far (the leaked skill tree info, the videos etc) TB's damage and other qualities are not something uber-exceptional. Yes, it's probably the best talent in the Lightning tree; but it's also very expensive skillpoint-wise, and it has some drawbacks which make it more a "primus inter pares" rather than an undisputed King of Sorcerer DPS.

Quote:Also, you seem to not fully understand how cooldowns (cds) work. In TB's case the ability has a 2 seconds casting time and 9 seconds cd, meaning when you start casting at time 0 the cd of the ability triggers. So when you finish your cast at time 2sec. the cd remaining is 7 seconds.

Before posting that, I checked the Tattoine sorc video. Granted, I didn't time it, but I did note that the cooldown timer on Chain Lightning started to run AFTER the spell was charged and cast. So, based on that I concluded that cooldowns start to run AFTER the spell is actually cast, and the time cost of the casting is NOT subsumed into the cooldown. Is that not correct?

Quote:The +50% bonus critical damage means it will crit for twice the amount stated, and that will happen every time, since Aff will be kept up 100% of the time. You need to check how critical strikes work as well, I'm not sure I explained it well enough in the article.

I guess I just assumed that critical = double damage (+100% damage), so +50% critical damage would mean +150% total damage. I'll be sure to check around for a more detailed explanation of the crit mechanic.

EDIT: I've read your article and as I understood it in SWTOR normal crits deal +50% damage (and not double damage). So, "+50% critical damage" would mean either +100% total damage on a critical (50% +50%), or +75% (50% +(50% of 50%)). In either case, it means the importance of TB being an autocrit vs. Afflicted targets is less than I initially assumed.

Quote:As for FL, it will have a very low ability coefficient. Why? Because of the slowing effect. You have to read up on that as well. A good example I can think of is the Frostbolt that Frost Mages have (in WoW). Because it has the slowing effect, it suffers a severe penalty, greatly decreasing its bonus damage. So this, coupled with the high TB coefficient really speaks against your claims.

Is that something we actually know, or just speculation based on analogies with other MMORPGs? Because, for instance, in the Tattoine vid, FL was shown as doing 792 damage for a lvl 26 Sorc, whereas Chain Lighting (a much higher-tiered talent, though granted not as high as TB) was shown as dealing only 448 damage; it is a multi-target spell, OFC, but still only half as much damage to a single target as FL. And according to the skill tree screenshots, TB is even less damaging, though it's single-target and not multi-target like CL.

OFC, if there are ability coefficients (and I don't see why not), then the situation may be drastically different for lvl 50 characters. Problem is, we don't know for sure and certainly don't know the exact numbers at this point.

Quote:Force cost concerns should only be considered for very very long encounters (10- 15min.). To counter them, there are 4 talents in the build suggested that enhance not only your force pool, but your force regen as well. If force is an issue even after taking those talents, then additional discussions can arise.

Weren't there calculations done which showed that with full usage of Lightning talents you'd run out of force very quickly? All 3 staple Lightning attacks (Shock, CL & TB) have hefty force costs: 50, 50 & 45, respectively. Using these 3 in an active rotation, e.g. one of these being cast every 2 seconds, it would cost 1500 force points per minute. Even assuming an 8 fp/sec force regen (very generous, if you ask me) it's still 1020 fp/minute. And as we've seen, the Tattoine sorc only had 600 fp at lvl 26.

The talents which increase force pool/decrease force costs will play a significant part, certainly, but so far it doesn't look like they're alleviating the situation fundamentally.

OTOH, a Madnessed FL will allow infinite non-stop spamming with a very high rate of fire (up to 35 Force Lightnings per minute?), and will actually bring you back more fp than it spends, allowing you to safely cast the more fp-heavy spells.


EDIT: After reading carefully through the trees once again, and paying particular attention to Lightning Effusion, well I can only say WHOA O__O Will it REALLY give -100% force cost for ANY TWO next force attacks EVERY time a force attack crits? Because if that is the case, then of course the entire Force Pool issue simply goes away considering TB will basically crit EVERY time...

If that's true, then certainly the Lightning 31 Sorc becomes clear favourite...

Quote:You don't get Death Field as Lightning Sorc. Madness build is not worth discussing for a single target cookie- cutter DPS build due to two major factors. The main ability of the tree is an AoE and the tree is shared, meaning it enhances a hybrid spec, rather than create a spec of its own. Viable =/= optimal.

1. I wouldn't go so far as saying DF is the main ability of the tree; one of the most important ones, sure, but in my eyes the enhancements to FL are at least as important.

2. Why something being an AOE is automatically anathema for a DPS build? Shouldn't there be plenty of instances with several enemies grouped together? And for individual bosses, spamming FL with all the enhancements may yield very high DPS, it seems?

3. The Madness tree appeals to both Sorc and Assassin, sure, but again why does it automatically make it inferior? Some of its abilities are perfect for a DPS Sorc, others for an Assassin build. You're not forced to take the Assassin-oriented skills in Madness.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is maybe we shouldn't just dismiss the possibility of efficient (and not merely viable) DPS builds outside the straitjacket of Lightning 31. Exploring the possibilities is what makes character building so fun, isn't it?

[Anubis Black]

Quote:Doesn't even a DPS "glass cannon" need to take survivability into account?

Not from a mathematical standpoint. If we are to theorycraft and optimize, then all we need to consider is damage. Force is indirectly affecting damage as the more force we have, the longer we will be able to cast our optimal rotation. Health is not a factor, neither is shielding- that's what healers are for.

I'm sorry, my friend, but there is no "fun" in optimizing. It's just numbers, calculations and simulations. That's what software is written for. So that a machine can eventually do it for you. I don't think this is the right place for you if you want to test non- standard builds and whatnot. Everything is set in stone- build A does X DPS, build B does Y DPS. If X > Y then you should spec build A. If you LIKE spec B better, then you will never be able to outdps a person of similar skill who specs A. It's not about what you want to play. It's what is optimal to play. I hope you catch the drift. E.g. I have hated Fire in my guts ever since Vanilla, but played it all these years whenever it was top DPS. Patches shift builds and occasionally there is another top DPS build. But if you want to be competitive you have to play it, even if you want to vomit every time you do it.

TB is not expensive skillpoint wise. And there are no skill points. There are talent points. And TB costs 1. To get to TB you need to spend 30 talent points. In the optimal build stated those 30 talent points are absolutely warranted.

Quote:So "good" design would mean that even a "hybrid" char, if thoughfully built, can fulfil the intended goals.

No. Read up on "hybrid tax" and try to imagine it in the setting of specializing in multiple trees rather than deep specializing in one (not as hybrid classes, but rather specs). What do you mean by intended goals? The intended goals are to maximize your damage output. Mathematically, there is always an optimal build. ALWAYS. There can't be an instance of there being two builds with the same DPS. One will be 1 DPS more for example (usually the difference is in the hundreds).

Quote:So, based on that I concluded that cooldowns start to run AFTER the spell is actually cast, and the time cost of the casting is NOT subsumed into the cooldown. Is that not correct?

No. That is not correct. Read my previous post. Also, read up on global cooldown.

CL hits up to 5 targets. Thus, suffers a damage penalty. The same should apply to FL.

Quote:Weren't there calculations done which showed that with full usage of Lightning talents you'd run out of force very quickly?

Nope. If you refer to one of the first posts in this thread, it assumed no force regen. "Staple" lightning attacks makes no sense, since highest priority have the two DoTs, Shock is cast only on the move if there is no LSm proc up and CL is only cast on LSm proc making it cost 0 force. At lvl. 26 the character shown didn't have talents that enhance CL hence the relatively low damage even with the possible penalty.

I'm not sure you have read anything posted so far, since you won't talk about using the above and having no clue about force usage. Do you want me to write you a spreadsheet if you don't understand how the rotation stated works? Maybe you should check one of the two other topics. Aff, CD, TB, LBFL, LSmCL, LS.

Quote:Shouldn't there be plenty of instances with several enemies grouped together?

How many times do we have to repeat SINGLE TARGET DPS? Spamming FL will be suboptimal, since you are lacking abilities that enhance your damage WHILE casting FL.

Quote:The Madness tree appeals to both Sorc and Assassin, sure, but again why does it automatically make it inferior?

Hybrid tax. If there isn't one, people will whine and it will be implemented. Either way, hybrid specs cannot compete mathematically.

Again, we have different ideas of "fun". For me fun is to pwn people who play suboptimal specs, because they LIKE it.

[Undead Prince]

LATER ADDITION TO MY PREVIOUS POST (separated for ease of reading)

Just for the hell of it, why not do a little further comparing between the Lightning tree and the FL/Madness tree rotations. Let's focus on single target DPS according to Black Anubis's explanations.

Disclaimers:
a) this will use the known numbers from the skilltree screenshots and, wherever available, the Tattoine Sorc video;
b) this focuses on single target DPS only;
c) this does not take into consideration force costs as these would be seriously mitigated for both builds;
d) DOT abilities are not considered as they would be roughly the same for both builds;
e) this won't include the possible "talent level coefficients" because I just don't know anything about those :-)

I. Lightning tree build:

1. There is no apparent way of getting around the TB Cooldown (Polarity Shift reduces casting time, not cooldown, and only by 20%). So, let's say 6 TB's per minute. Taking Alratan's TB damage calculation, that would give us a total of 2052 damage per minute from the TBs (this is just what we have from the skilltree scans, likely will be significantly higher for higher-level chars, but we use what we have). In terms of pure casting time, it would cost around 8 seconds.

2. Next is the LBFL. Assuming an Affliction crit every 12 seconds (1 tick per 3 seconds with 25% crit chance), that would give us 5 FLs per minute with 7.5 sec total casting time. 3960 total damage.

3. Next is the regular FL ("As we see, there is no incentive to ever use Lightning Strike if Force Lightning is available, so it might only be used when the latter is on cd."). 6 second cooldown +3 sec casting time = about 6 times per minute, with 18 sec total casting time and 4752 total damage.

4. Next is Shock. Instant casting, 6 second cooldown = 10 times per minute, for 3900 damage total. Total 6 sec casting time just for the animation/actual casting command to take effect.

5. Finally, the rest is filled with Lightning Strike. 1,5 sec casting time, so about 8 times per minute considering the time already spent on casting other abilities. 2848 total damage.

GRAND TOTAL: 17512 damage per minute. Or, 15460 without the Thundering Blasts.

II. Force Lightning/Madness tree build:

1. We're spamming Force Lightning all the way. According to the approximations given previously, with Madness + Lightning Barrage + Wrath it should be possible to spam more than 30 FLs per minute, with 30% of them getting +20% damage bonus from Wrath. 30 FLs would thus give us 25186 damage per minute. 35 FLs would give 29383 damage per minute.

2. The added bonus is you don't have to keep track of your rotation, various procs etc. You're just spamming one spell.

3. For extra oomph, throw in a few Death Fields. With Instant casting, this shouldn't really affect the above calculations. With a 15 sec cooldown, you'll be able to cast 5 of them in the space of 61 seconds, giving you an extra 3615 damage (1205 vs. 1 target) and stealing 600 health in the process.

GRAND TOTAL: 27,000-30,000 vs. single target

So, based on these approximations, to be more efficient than the FL-spamming Madness build, the Lightning-tree build would have to have its Thundering Blasts deal at least 12,000 damage, or more likely >15,000 damage (or, >2500 per casting) in order to be clearly more damaging. So that's how high the "correcting coefficients" should take it in order to outdamage a level 26 Force Lightning.

Some non-DPS considerations:

1) As a bonus, the Madness build will also have Parasitism + Devour, which for a 25% force critical and two active DoTs each ticking every 3 seconds will give 1,3% of total hp and fp pools on average every 6 seconds, or 10 times/minute. 13% of a 5,000 hp pool = 650 hp, which coupled with the Death Field will heal us a healthy 1250 hp per minute. That's almost as much as THREE Dark Heals. So not only this build would appear to have higher DPS, but it also has higher survivability, putting a lesser strain on the group's healers.

2) FL has non-damaging effects as well, and will keep your target at the very least 50% slowed, if not outright stunned. Again, this should considerably benefit the group as a whole.

[Undead Prince]

(08-11-2011 01:34 AM)Anubis Black Wrote:  

Quote:Doesn't even a DPS "glass cannon" need to take survivability into account?

Not from a mathematical standpoint. If we are to theorycraft and optimize, then all we need to consider is damage. Force is indirectly affecting damage as the more force we have, the longer we will be able to cast our optimal rotation. Health is not a factor, neither is shielding- that's what healers are for.

Hmm, that's a rather strange approach IMHO. Consider this:

You rely on tanks to take the damage and on healers to heal you. Both of these types optimize to better perform their roles. However, the weaker YOUR character is in terms of survivability, the MORE resources they have to spend on keeping you alive.

So, from the group strategy standpoint, more survivability for ANY member = stronger group.

If a slight increase in DPS will cost you a large decrease in survivability, it may actually be suboptimal because the party spends more resources keeping you alive than the bang they get from your DPS.

Quote:I'm sorry, my friend, but there is no "fun" in optimizing.

Well, I beg to differ In fact, if it ever becomes a boring chore, I'll say "screw it" and go do something else. I play games to have fun, I've got enough boring workload at work

Quote:TB is not expensive skillpoint wise. And there are no skill points. There are talent points. And TB costs 1. To get to TB you need to spend 30 talent points. In the optimal build stated those 30 talent points are absolutely warranted.

That's what I meant by saying TB is expensive. You need to spend 31 points to get there. It's an objective fact, to get TB you need to spend a lot of points and in the process sacrifice some other options.

Quote:No. Read up on "hybrid tax" and try to imagine it in the setting of specializing in multiple trees rather than deep specializing in one (not as hybrid classes, but rather specs).

If the "hybrid" would always be less efficient than a "pure", why ever make "hybrids"? And I'm not talking "jack of all trades" here. I.e. I only take DPS-related abilities from the Madness tree, so it's the same "pure DPS-er", and not an "Assassin-Sorc hybrid", it just uses a different talent build than the 31 Lightning one.

Quote:What do you mean by intended goals? The intended goals are to maximize your damage output. Mathematically, there is always an optimal build. ALWAYS. There can't be an instance of there being two builds with the same DPS. One will be 1 DPS more for example (usually the difference is in the hundreds).

Well, at this point we simply don't know whether 31 Lightning WILL be the maximum DPS build. As I see it, there are some other possibilities as well. And I still think one has to consider survivability. If that 1 extra DPS costs you a serious loss in survivability, IMO the build would be suboptimal.

Quote:

Quote:So, based on that I concluded that cooldowns start to run AFTER the spell is actually cast, and the time cost of the casting is NOT subsumed into the cooldown. Is that not correct?

No. That is not correct. Read my previous post. Also, read up on global cooldown.

Again, I refer you to the Tatooine Sorc video. At 3:45, for instance, you can clearly see that the Sorc first spends 3 seconds charging up Chain Lightning, then casts it, and only then the cooldown animation for the CL icon starts to run - and it runs for 6 seconds, the exact cooldown indicated on the CL tooltip. Is that not correct, then?

The "global cooldown" you're referring to is the 1-second mandatory cooldown after any ability use, right? As far as I can see, it is completely separate from the individual ability cooldowns. I guess it's just there to introduce a certain minimum interval between abilities, even if they don't have any casting time or cooldown.

Quote:CL hits up to 5 targets. Thus, suffers a damage penalty. The same should apply to FL.

Should, or does/will? So far FL's been considered the most powerful single target spell, not counting TB, isn't that correct?

Quote:Weren't there calculations done which showed that with full usage of Lightning talents you'd run out of force very quickly?

Quote:Nope. If you refer to one of the first posts in this thread, it assumed no force regen.

Again, even with force regen at 8/sec a rotation of TB/CL/Shock would still cost a lot, burning through the mana pool quickly. As I said in a previous post, casting a 50 fp spell every 2 secs for 1 minute will cost you about 1000 fp even with 8 fp/sec regen, and a 26 level Sorc only had 600 fp.

Lightning Effusion + TB + Affliction is the game changer here, certainly, and once this combo is up the importance of the force pool drops radically. However, as you put it yourself: "If 2/2 gives 100% chance on crit to reduce the Force cost of the next two abilities by 100% it will be changed fast. It’s just not balanced."

Quote:"Staple" lightning attacks makes no sense, since highest priority have the two DoTs,

The DoTs are cast for any build since both are basic abilities, so little point in specifically mentioning them.

Quote:Shock is cast only on the move if there is no LSm proc up and CL is only cast on LSm proc making it cost 0 force.

Wait, doesn't Lightning Storm reduce the CL CAST TIME to 0 and not the force cost? It says so in the talent calc and in the skill screens.

Quote:At lvl. 26 the character shown didn't have talents that enhance CL hence the relatively low damage even with the possible penalty.

True, but that's all we have rolling ATM. OFC, we can't be 100% accurate with so little hard data available. But we can make some general observations and approximations.

Quote:I'm not sure you have read anything posted so far, since you won't talk about using the above and having no clue about force usage. Do you want me to write you a spreadsheet if you don't understand how the rotation stated works? Maybe you should check one of the two other topics. Aff, CD, TB, LBFL, LSmCL, LS.

I've read almost everything on the SI forum before posting. If I mix something up, it's because the entire mechanic is rather new to me, and some things I just don't grasp straight away. Trying my best though, no need to be snarky

Quote:How many times do we have to repeat SINGLE TARGET DPS?

Okay, okay, don't get angry I just honestly don't see why AoE DPS shouldn't ever be taken into account. Will there be no instances of enemy groups? Wouldn't in these cases AoE DPS be more viable than single target DPS?

And anyway, FL is single target.

Quote:Spamming FL will be suboptimal, since you are lacking abilities that enhance your damage WHILE casting FL.

Haunting Presence + Wrath both directly increase FL damage; Madness, Lightning Barrage and Lightning Effusion increase FL damage indirectly by allowing to cast it more often.

Quote:Again, we have different ideas of "fun". For me fun is to pwn people who play suboptimal specs, because they LIKE it.

So... you play characters you don't like... to win vs. people who play characters they like? to each his own I guess. I, for instance, am looking for the optimal DPS build because that's what I WANT to play I don't care if it's Lightning 31 or something else; I just want to explore all possible options before making my choice. And so far, FL spamming through Madness looks interesting as an unorthodox DPS option.

[Draeveus]

(08-11-2011 02:44 AM)Undead Prince Wrote:  Haunting Presence + Wrath both directly increase FL damage; Madness, Lightning Barrage and Lightning Effusion increase FL damage indirectly by allowing to cast it more often.

Just to point something out really quick:

Force Lightning itself does not benefit from Wrath. FL is channelled and therefore has no cast time. This would put a severe hindrance on your proposed FL spam build.

Also, about the "hybrid tax":

According to the latest leaked patch notes, both Madness and Balance (JC shared tree) have been buffed to bring their dps more in line with other trees. Not sure if this is true or not, or what Bioware's definition of "in line" is, but hopefully this means that both AC's will have access to 2 viable dps specs, and players can pick the one that suits them best.

Again, like everything else, we'll have to wait until more concrete information becomes available before anything can be set in stone.