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 [ARCHIVE] 1.1.5 Madness/Balance Sorcerer DPS Compendium
01-02-2012, 05:25 PM
Post: #91
 Kaedis Super Moderator Posts: 1,587 Joined: Sep 2011 Reputation: 7
Quote:I still don't see how Power is so high on the priority list. You need a TON of it for only a minor increase. I had (before going crit/surge) over 400 power (not force power) and it was only like +80 or 90 damage to my force attacks. The modifiers for Crit and Surge are much better.
Wouldn't it make sense to get Crit to the 30% (where it seems to plateau) and then prioritize surge/power as equal?
I haven't done any math on the subject of course, I leave the theory crafting to you smart people. But going the crit/surge priority I FEEL like I'm doing more DPS.

Well, as I've said before, there will never be a way of providing a generalized stat weight, as those weights are heavily dependent on character stats. Without a sim, all I can really do is some qualitative analysis and statistical approximation.

Now, if I run the calculations for just Force Lightning, I get the following stat weights in my current gear (weights normalized to Willpower):

Willpower: 1.0000
Power: 0.9185
Crit: 0.6141
Surge: 0.7134
Alacrity: 0.7372

If I run the same calculations for the BIS baseline template I built up in the general info thread, I get:

Willpower: 1.0000
Power: 0.8801
Crit: 0.3317
Surge: 0.8828
Alacrity: 0.6654

Now, my current gearset is 39.53% Power, 16.35% Crit, 20.38% Surge, and 23.74% Alacrity, out of 893 rating total. The BIS template is 9.30% Power, 46.61% Crit, 17.48% Surge, and 26.61% Alacrity, out of 1150 rating. As you can clearly see, the higher the percentage of your total stats that a particular stat is, the lower it's weight (Power excepted), which is perfectly logical due to the DR curves. In addition, the massive increase in crit rating in the BIS template results in the value of Surge skyrocketing. Power's scalar is relatively static, and seems like it will always be roughly 0.85-0.9 Willpower. This is due to the fact that, for a Sorc, Willpower gains a net total of 11.3% boost from talents and buffs, something Power lacks. Willpower and Power also both gain a boost over other stats due to the +5% Bonus buff from SWs. Surge in particular is incredibly sensitive to crit chance. When I remembered to include the 10% crit to FL from talents, the weight for Surge jumped by 40% for my current gear set.

Now, note, this only applies to Force Lightning. DoTs gain zero benefit from Alacrity, so the weight for that goes to nil. However, they do gain a bonus to surge, so Crit gains a boost in value. For example, Affliction:

My Gear
Willpower: 1.0000
Power: 0.8764
Crit: 0.8208
Surge: 0.4795
Alacrity: 0.0000

BIS Template
Willpower: 1.0000
Power: 0.8550
Crit: 0.0.4359
Surge: 0.6592
Alacrity: 0.0000

As you can see, calculating stat weights is far from straightforward. I've selected the qualitative weight list I did based on an analysis of the talent trees, and estimate of stats on gear, and some seat-of-the-pants guesswork. For example, the crit scaling value for both of the above talents does not include the effects of Lightning Barrage, which amplifies the value of crit above that listed here. Alacrity only affects ~70% of our damage, dropping it's value significantly from the weight listed under Force Lightning. The priority is a rough estimate of the benefit of the stats. As I noted in the OP, it should not be taken as gospel, and even with those weights, the values for the stats really aren't that far off from each other unless you stack a ton of one of them (for example, the 536 crit rating the Force Master's set comes with by default).

Even Angels must kill from time to time...
01-03-2012, 04:13 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2012 10:15 PM by Kaedis.)
Post: #92
 hwh Newbie Posts: 1 Joined: Jan 2012 Reputation: 0
(01-02-2012 05:25 PM)Kor Wrote:  If I run the same calculations for the BIS baseline template I built up in the general info thread, I get:

Apologies but where is this bis template/list? tried to search your threads/posts but to no avail
01-03-2012, 10:15 PM
Post: #93
 Kaedis Super Moderator Posts: 1,587 Joined: Sep 2011 Reputation: 7
(01-03-2012 04:13 PM)hwh Wrote:  Apologies but where is this bis template/list? tried to search your threads/posts but to no avail

Even Angels must kill from time to time...
01-05-2012, 02:15 AM
Post: #94
 Griemak Junior Member Posts: 3 Joined: Jan 2012 Reputation: 0
Is there a simulator/work being done on one? If the BiS is truly BiS, without knowing how much DPS gain/loss exist by taking away one point of each stat against the full stack of the others, normalization into Willpower is daunting, almost not possible to do manually. You have done the original weight calc per spell, but that spell's weight into total damage/DPS would also need calculated and then all of it normalized back to a normalized stat. Then iterations of chance would need configured as well. Not exactly napkin math. It is certainly possible to do by hand, but the effort and error may outweight the results.
01-05-2012, 02:47 AM
Post: #95
 Kaedis Super Moderator Posts: 1,587 Joined: Sep 2011 Reputation: 7
Quote:Is there a simulator/work being done on one?

I'm working on one currently, though it's going slowly.

The overall weights can't be calculated accurately without a sim, as we need exact proportions of ability usage to calculate it. That said, keep in mind that the "BIS" set I made isn't actually BIS (or at least, isn't necessarily so). It's simply the raw-from-the-vendor highest item level items we have available (the Rakata set). We'll need solid stat weights to actually define BIS, and mods will complicate that significantly.

Even Angels must kill from time to time...
01-05-2012, 04:01 AM
Post: #96
 Fade Newbie Posts: 2 Joined: Jan 2012 Reputation: 0
Really good information here. Thanks for the resource. Really looking forward to the sim.

In your analysis of this and other classes, where do you see this class/spec ranking on a damage meter (once they exist) in top ops encounters? Just a gut feel? In early hard modes, I can see that we don't have some of the burst damage as some of the other classes. When 'gear check' bosses enrage, isn't much we can do there but keep applying dots, burning CDs, and channeling in between the couple of instants we have. Seems consistent among other Sorcs that I know. Am I nuts here? Makes sense since dots are such a big part of our repertoire. I can see us having high raid DPS in longer raid encounters though, but these short ones do seem like it is harder initially to get through the enrage. Granted, I don't have BiS, but other guildies don't either.

Anyway, I look forward to checking I on the work. Nice job!
01-05-2012, 04:09 AM
Post: #97
 Asmiroth Member Posts: 51 Joined: Dec 2011 Reputation: 0
I have a few questions/items:

- the BiS link you post doesn't match the numbers I've added up. Can you update that post with the weapon you've selected and the appropriate relics? I have Draay's Legacy in my sheet, Boundless Ages and M7-R3 as my relics.

- The armor rating used in your models is 35% or something else?

- my base stats, talented and buffed (no stims) are: 687.2 Force Bonus, 37.3 Crit Chance, 77.8 Multiplier, 9.43% alacrity.

- 13/28 gives me the following DPCT on single targets of: 2261 Affliction, 1801 Crushing Darkness, 1483 Death Field, 1509 Force Lightning, 861 Chain Lightning. The 5 minute DPS mark, with CL only cast when Force is above 100, gives me 1820.

- Running 10 cycles of 5 minutes and boosting each stat by 100 to test, those numbers give me a stat weight of 1 Willpower, 0.9 Power, 0.38 Crit, 0.85 Surge and 0.59 Alacrity

Given that my stats are similar to yours, why is my DPCT so vastly different from yours? I gather I must have my co-efficients wrong someplace?

- Don't argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
01-05-2012, 04:55 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2012 04:57 AM by Kaedis.)
Post: #98
 Kaedis Super Moderator Posts: 1,587 Joined: Sep 2011 Reputation: 7
(01-05-2012 04:01 AM)Fade Wrote:  Really good information here. Thanks for the resource. Really looking forward to the sim.

In your analysis of this and other classes, where do you see this class/spec ranking on a damage meter (once they exist) in top ops encounters? Just a gut feel? In early hard modes, I can see that we don't have some of the burst damage as some of the other classes. When 'gear check' bosses enrage, isn't much we can do there but keep applying dots, burning CDs, and channeling in between the couple of instants we have. Seems consistent among other Sorcs that I know. Am I nuts here? Makes sense since dots are such a big part of our repertoire. I can see us having high raid DPS in longer raid encounters though, but these short ones do seem like it is harder initially to get through the enrage. Granted, I don't have BiS, but other guildies don't either.

Anyway, I look forward to checking I on the work. Nice job!

I've done no real analysis of other class dps at all, so I've no idea where we stand there. However, I do believe Madness will rank out noticeably higher than Lightning. Without a sim, I can't demonstrate that mathematically, but my gut says so.

Quote:- the BiS link you post doesn't match the numbers I've added up. Can you update that post with the weapon you've selected and the appropriate relics? I have Draay's Legacy in my sheet, Boundless Ages and M7-R3 as my relics.

I used solid Rakata gear (the full set from the Rakata vendor, plus the implants and ear from the Ilum vendor), plus the 136 saber from the Columni vendor, since the saber from the Rakata vendor is (or was at the time) 126 rating rather than 140. However, that set was NOT a "BIS" set. It was a test-bed stat setup so we could start theorycrafting based on level 50 stat values. It's assumed to be approximate. Come to think of it, I should probably stop referring to it as a "BIS template".

Quote:- The armor rating used in your models is 35% or something else?

I used 30%. This has been suggested to be rather low, so I'll redo the calcs assuming the 50% that's been suggested for bosses

Quote: - my base stats, talented and buffed (no stims) are: 687.2 Force Bonus, 37.3 Crit Chance, 77.8 Multiplier, 9.43% alacrity.

- 13/28 gives me the following DPCT on single targets of: 2261 Affliction, 1801 Crushing Darkness, 1483 Death Field, 1509 Force Lightning, 861 Chain Lightning. The 5 minute DPS mark, with CL only cast when Force is above 100, gives me 1820.

- Running 10 cycles of 5 minutes and boosting each stat by 100 to test, those numbers give me a stat weight of 1 Willpower, 0.9 Power, 0.38 Crit, 0.85 Surge and 0.59 Alacrity

Given that my stats are similar to yours, why is my DPCT so vastly different from yours? I gather I must have my co-efficients wrong someplace?

I'll double check my math again. However, note that my DPCT accounts for armor, and Death Field accounts for an approximation of the benefit of Death Mark.

Even Angels must kill from time to time...
01-05-2012, 08:00 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2012 08:01 AM by Norpseldro.)
Post: #99
 Norpseldro Junior Member Posts: 5 Joined: Dec 2011 Reputation: 0
thanks for the guide, it's been very helpful. I have a question about secondary stat priority and I apologize if it seems a little remedial.

In this guide you state that Accuracy over 100% up to 110% grants a spell pen/resistance negations effect. Since sorcerers have an intrinsic 100% accuracy, you recommend avoiding this secondary stat all together. I was curious to why you would avoid acquiring the 10% extra hit for resistance reduction. Relating this to my wow experience, a warlock always had up Curse of Elements (reduced resistances by 5% I think). This was a huge dps increase and CoE had to be kept up on targets at all times. Wouldn't the 110% provide your attacks with a "built in CoE" and make it necessary.
01-05-2012, 08:35 AM
Post: #100
 Asmiroth Member Posts: 51 Joined: Dec 2011 Reputation: 0
(01-05-2012 04:55 AM)Kor Wrote:  I'll double check my math again. However, note that my DPCT accounts for armor, and Death Field accounts for an approximation of the benefit of Death Mark.

I noticed a bug on my damage numbers with armor. Fixed that now. DPCT comes to: 2261 Affliction, 1621 Crushing Darkness, 1006 Force Lightning, 988 Death Field and 1041 for Chain Lightning (w/ Wrath). DPS goes to 1330.

Correct me if I'm wrong but only Affliction, Thundering Blast and Creeping Terror are NOT affected by armor.

I can see why you would add Death Mark to the DF calculation - seeing it alone as DPCT you can doubt it's value. You need the Force to use it - which you run out of after 3 minutes due to Chain Lightning. CL is near equal to FL in terms of damage, making it arguable to use in anything but an AE situation (as my model shows me).

Finally, with the stat weights I posted previously (they are still close enough), DPS improves by equipping Columi items rather than Rakata. Chest, Waist, Legs, Feet and Ear.

- Don't argue with an idiot, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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