Immortal | Defense Compendium | A Tank's Guide To The Galaxy

[Elobi]

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - Guardian slash only used with five stacks - Only a small one, just means it generates less threat at the start of the fight i.e. when its most needed

I'm not sure I understand? - Since I just choose not to open the fight with GS, but use Backand and sundering instead.

But it really doesn't matter, since the sheet is wants to compare the two specs damage and survivability, not a single ability's threat.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - Guardian Leap on cooldown is rediculous, nobody in their right mind would use it on cooldown, not only does it use a GCD when it doesn't need to but it also messes up positioning - this should be saved for when yourself/an ally is being burst down. I know you've used it on cooldown but i'd just take it out and count it as more of a situational ability.

The reason I use Guardian Leap on cooldown, was to see the maximum potential of the builds in discussion. So I decided to use it before the knockback, since I designed it so you have the unstoppable buff whenever the boss would do either Energy Beam or Killing Blow.

And it showed us exactly what you said, that nobody in their right mind would do it, because as I stated you loose flexibility.
But I stand by my statement, that in the Hybrid, you have to choose between output vs survivability.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - 1.5 second delay before a charge - You can quite easily time this after a force push/blade storm/dispatch as you're running out and not lose any GCD's at all. This is a huge advantage for the hybrid which you havent left in.

Good point.
That would give you a total of 4 Force push's, 12 Blade storms, and the rest to use on dispatch (did not make an execute phase, so wont be dealing with dispatch)
Which gives you a total of (4*900)+(12*1300)+(31,2*(6*12))= 21445,4 damage, which now gives us a total difference of: 4022,4 Damage.
So in this fight - we either gain or loose: damage or EH between the builds.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  - Not sure how you've worked out the DR for unstoppable/huddle. Could you allude to that? Shouldnt they both be more in the middle, ones at 44k ones at 4k.
- Force Scream should be doing more damage by a lot with the hybrid spec, as its cooldown is lower, can I ask how you got that answer?

Did you read the first lines about notes and boss abilities ?

But lets go through it anyways.
Quite simple, since as mentioned before, is the huddle only active before the knockback, whilst Unstoppable is active at all other critical points, which is why it would seem as if huddle was worth less; maybe I should have noted that. I can see why you get confused.

Force Scream does more damage in the hybrid(especially after we added the "extra free GCD's"), but since this a non RNG fight there is no crit etc and that is also why the boss'es abilities are timed to fit charge and intercede, and why we always have 3 stacks of Courage whenever we use Force Sweep. It is not perfect, but I am willing to accept a margin of error, to ease the proces of comparisment.

I simply took the avg amount of damage from the tooltips, since factoring crit, shields etc would be a vast amount of math for no obvious reason.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  The main reason I believe this build is better is that the 4% damage reduction is flat across the board and cant be wasted on 'base damage' i.e. the damage the boss does consistently throughout the fight that is not burst damage. For example if you use your sonic barrier 2 seconds before a boss burst, it gets taken out by the bosses next attack - and attack that could have quite easily been healed up with no real effort by a healer using zero resources. This turn of events means that the barrier has absolutely zero effect on the upcoming burst damage, the 4% damage reduction however means that the healers have to heal through that small damage beforehand but have an easier time managing the burst. If you wait for the burst to come you might die (cc'd or out of range if knocked back) or you might end up doing less threat (messing up rotation, not using sonic barrier on cooldown).

You call me an idiot, yet build your argument on a belief?
I'm hesitant to feel offended. since, yes there are factors like that, but bare in mind that if I know that there will be coming a huge burst of damage, I wont just mindlessly use my Blade Storm. Since if we are talking a base attack from the boss - that hits for, lets say, 5000 before %DR kicks in - that means you will take 2500 damage in the hybrid, and the traditional spec would take 2700, of course will the amount negated by the extra 4% get better the more damage the boss inflicts, but then we start looking at burst phases where you would have to use another cooldown anyways, which is a total different discussion.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  In essence, you play and spec the hybrid differently to how I run it (i go for crit on blade storm after overhead slash, and get full pts into free blade storm on charge since we have a dps jugg), and you're assumptions include a mechanic that is unpredictable at best and on some fights is completely useless (soa for example). (even your example with no base melee attacks would make the talent useless)

In a non RNG fight like this, you would come out with abit more damage compared to the posted hybrid. Since you would crit 100% of the time; which essentially is a lie, The talent is only worth more than the burn talent if you crit.

So if, according to you i'm not allowed to use a fight like Soa, how do you maximize your survivability with charge and intercede during the p3 ? Becasue no matter how many times I turn that table, I always end upnot having optimal uptime.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  

Quote:Furthermore, are you locked into a "moving" rotation, which might not alwasy be possible - Think of wiping with 1% on Soa, because you interceded a raid member, for then to see soa move away from the spinner, and then he begins casting. nothing you can do.

This is simple idiocy, please don't try to use this as evidence. Just trying to grasp at straws with that.

It was merely an example of how inflexible the hybrid is, yes the traditional is more vulnerable to RNG, but even without courage, you can still perform.

Which is essentially my point. The traditional spec doesn't have any "build in" penalties.

But I've come to the point where this is definetly the best hybrid build I've dealt with so far. and they both came put almost equal.

I will add it to the compendium with a few notes of interest.

(01-15-2012 05:09 PM)cerberias Wrote:  I have one question though - has anyone worked out whether the shield effect causes threat, and if so, how much? Also, does a stack of 'sunder' cause threat? I'm more or less making this spec for threat generation as I believe the threat generation (as do my guildies) is higher than a standard spec especially at frontloading at the start of a fight. The - at least what I believe - added mitigation is just a plus side.

All datamined data shows, so far, that only damage, healing and "tooltipped threat"(Backhand, Soresu form) creates threat.

This was discussed in a previous post aswell.