[split] SW/JK General Information | Simple Questions and Answers

[guardian17]

(09-01-2011 11:17 AM)Sol Wrote:  

(09-01-2011 06:21 AM)guardian17 Wrote:  calculation:

150 base damage (pretend number)
+30% damage from tier 1 vengeance talent
+100% damage from 4 stacks of shockwave
150 + 150x1.3 = 345
100% chance to crit because of force charge = x2 damage
690 damage
throw in minor talents like +6% from tier 1 vengeance, 20% armor ignore, +2% strength, etc
150 base damage attack is doing 700+ damage with full buffs for a 31 Rage 10 Vengeance spec warrior.

MK has worked out that crits so far have only been increasing damage by 150% therefore the total damage prior to armour reduction etc would be:

345 * 1.5 = 518 damage

Smash definitely looks to be one of our hardest hitters alongside obliterate and Vicious Throw.

I forgot to add in the tier 6 talent which increases crit damage by 30%. Smash will be hitting very very hard.

[Sol]

(09-01-2011 11:28 AM)guardian17 Wrote:  I forgot to add in the tier 6 talent which increases crit damage by 30%. Smash will be hitting very very hard.

Indeed! I honestly don't see how the other specs are going to compete against this kind of guaranteed burst every 12 or so seconds. I'm currently trying to place points here, there and eveywhere on other trees and I'm not seeing any other options that produce as much synergy as an oblit/smash build...

[Sennin]

(09-01-2011 04:26 PM)Sol Wrote:  

(09-01-2011 11:28 AM)guardian17 Wrote:  I forgot to add in the tier 6 talent which increases crit damage by 30%. Smash will be hitting very very hard.

Indeed! I honestly don't see how the other specs are going to compete against this kind of guaranteed burst every 12 or so seconds. I'm currently trying to place points here, there and eveywhere on other trees and I'm not seeing any other options that produce as much synergy as an oblit/smash build...

There are alot of assumptions about the mechanics here that may or may not work out.

1. We don't know the damage/DR formula yet--It would be nice if Smash damage (and the talents that modify it) were additive or multiplicative in the manner that you guys are hoping for. But I don't think this will be the case. We don't know the formula yet, even on the damage side, and then especially don't know the damage reduction side of it.

2. Damage Coefficients--Also, some of the abilities may have totally different damage coefficients that scale differently. As Smash is an AoE skill, I am less inclined to believe that it will scale as aggressively as some of our other abilities such as Ravage, which requires a channel.

3. How often do DOT's or channeled abilities TICK ?
-Is it every second? Or every 3 seconds? And if every 3 seconds, is it one tick at the very beginning of the ability and one at the end? Or if every 3 seconds, is it only 1 tick at the end?

4. How often it ticks totally determines the effectiveness of both Force Choke and Force Crush themselves, as well as the effectiveness of Shockwave (granting a Smash damage buff). This will determine how many stacks of Shockwave your average Smash will have, not just the first one.

-Force Choke is a 3 second channel w/ 1 min cooldown (47 seconds w/ talents: Ravager & Shii-Cho)
-Force Crush lasts 5 seconds, with 21 second cooldown (18 seconds w/ talents: Shii-Cho)

5. Even without taking into account Tick mechanics, just looking at cooldowns of Force Choke and Force Crush, Shockwave will not be applied every 9 or 12 seconds a Smash becomes available like people are talking about.

6. Back to formla--Additive or Multiplicative?:Use a rounder number to make comparisons with percents easier, such that the base is 100 so all % damage increases turn into their actual number.
Ex. 100% base Smash = 100 damage and 30% damage increase = 30 damage.

Additive: Assuming a critical hit and base 100 damage
100 base damage
+30 (+30% damage from Decimate)
+100 (+100% from 4 stacks of Shockwave)
+50 (+50% from a critical hit)
+30 (+30% increased critical damage from Dark Resonance Tier 6 Rage)
***************
Total = 310 damage (aka a 310% Smash)

Multiplicative and Additive: Assuming the above situation and percentages
100 base damage
+30 (from Decimate)
+100 (from Shockwave)
230 * 1.8 = 414 (from total Critical multiplier)
****************
Total = 414 damage (aka a 414% Smash)

What if Criticals only multiplies base, talents only increase base damage, and the talents are added in to the total last?:
100 base damage
100 * 1.8 = 180 (from total Critical multiplier)
+30 (+30% of base from Decimate)
+100 (+100% from Shockwave)
****************
310 total damage again (or a 310% Smash)

***Which way (of which there are several other ways to calculate it not shown), but the point is that we don't know how it is calculated. Until we know, we can't definitively say one build is better than another talent wise.

***Haven't even attempted to further complicate things by adding in Armor penetration or Damage Reduction mechanics, which again I don't know.

[OhSith]

Good discussion guys, glad I could add to the forum.

[Masterkiller]

Sennin brings up one of the points that has been on my mind the most and that is whether the talents are additive or multiplicative. I default to multiplicative unless proven additive because additive scales much much faster.

I would be more then happy to give someone some exact instructions on how to determine this if they have the ability to perform some tests and reset their skills.

[Sol]

While I definitely see that we cannot assume additive over multiplicative or damage coefficients, what I was referring to was the 'synergy' that smash shares with Obliterate & FC. This is going to be a guaranteeed high(ish) amount of damage everytime your FC is off CD (I forgot about this in my last post). You are going to be able to set your opponents up extremely well. Personally I'm going to look to get them towards the 1/3 health mark through ususal means and look to finish a fight in this manner:

FC > Oblit > Sm > VT

I do agree however that we cannot make anymore reasonable assumptions until we can confirm the damage coefficients or the way they apply bonuses damage and crit multipliers. I won't pretend to understand those mechanics and leave that to better suited people. I personally need hands on testing to see things in a more visual manner. Although my opinion still stands that Smash, if used correctly is going to be a great addition to a Rage warriors burst.

[guardian17]

(09-02-2011 08:10 AM)Sol Wrote:  While I definitely see that we cannot assume additive over multiplicative or damage coefficients, what I was referring to was the 'synergy' that smash shares with Obliterate & FC. This is going to be a guaranteeed high(ish) amount of damage everytime your FC is off CD (I forgot about this in my last post). You are going to be able to set your opponents up extremely well. Personally I'm going to look to get them towards the 1/3 health mark through ususal means and look to finish a fight in this manner:

FC > Oblit > Sm > VT

I do agree however that we cannot make anymore reasonable assumptions until we can confirm the damage coefficients or the way they apply bonuses damage and crit multipliers. I won't pretend to understand those mechanics and leave that to better suited people. I personally need hands on testing to see things in a more visual manner. Although my opinion still stands that Smash, if used correctly is going to be a great addition to a Rage warriors burst.

I'm starting to see huge flaws in the Rage tree which I didn't see before. The entire tree revolves around abilities with very high cooldowns such as force choke and force crush. There are multiple abilities that buff smash so long as the above 2 high cooldown abilities are used. The problem is that in PVP, something could happen that would mess up the rotation.

-Perhaps force choke or crush miss
-Perhaps force choke or crush are deflected
-Perhaps force choke or crush are dispelled

The problem here is that the Rage tree relies heavily on these abilities, which if they don't land then damage falls considerably. The only other abilities which the Rage tree really boosts is force scream. The design of the Rage tree now leads me to believe that it is extremely subsceptible to RNG, unlike other trees which focus on abilities with much shorter cooldowns.

[Sol]

(09-02-2011 10:25 AM)guardian17 Wrote:  I'm starting to see huge flaws in the Rage tree which I didn't see before. The entire tree revolves around abilities with very high cooldowns such as force choke and force crush. There are multiple abilities that buff smash so long as the above 2 high cooldown abilities are used. The problem is that in PVP, something could happen that would mess up the rotation.

-Perhaps force choke or crush miss
-Perhaps force choke or crush are deflected
-Perhaps force choke or crush are dispelled

The problem here is that the Rage tree relies heavily on these abilities, which if they don't land then damage falls considerably. The only other abilities which the Rage tree really boosts is force scream. The design of the Rage tree now leads me to believe that it is extremely subsceptible to RNG, unlike other trees which focus on abilities with much shorter cooldowns.

Once again, without knowing the coeeficients this is speculation, however a crit smash used after an oblit is still nothing to be sneezed at. It simply means that you're going to have a (much) harder smash every 50 secs (talented). It is very heavily reliant on FC going off without a hitch. However I'm willing to be that in 1v1 situations unless they trinket out of the choke than you're guaranteed a full FC and even if they do, most likely you're going to get a tick or 2 anyways for 25-50% damage. Also in group situations it's not always easy to spot everyone doing everything so chances are unless you're being focused you will be able to get FC out for the full benefit. Unlike Arena's where you would be waiting for just such a moment.

One thing I want to know though, now that FC has a 3 sec channel, won't the maximum amount of increased damage from shockwave be 75%, not 100%? 25% for each of the 3 ticks. Unless I'm missing something here...

[guardian17]

Force Choke might tick 4 times if it ticks once at 0 seconds, 1 second, 2 second, and 3 seconds. Also, you made a comment in another thread about DE confirming that mikeb said consular is the most powerful class in PVP right now. What does DE stand for?

[Sol]

(09-02-2011 11:08 AM)guardian17 Wrote:  Force Choke might tick 4 times if it ticks once at 0 seconds, 1 second, 2 second, and 3 seconds. Also, you made a comment in another thread about DE confirming that mikeb said consular is the most powerful class in PVP right now. What does DE stand for?

Daniel Errikson (hopefully spelt correctly) He was playing a consular and commented to Mike that it was the current OP build out of any class.

Yeah I defintely want this confirmed too as Smash relies heavily on the increased damage talents...