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May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
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May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
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12-15-2011, 11:25 PM
Post: #41
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RE: DPS Spec Comparison
OK, so even tank-y specs are supposed to do good damage in SWTOR. Let's put this to a test...
Suppose we're going to Operations, and we need somebody to tank on one encounter and DPS on another (o/c can change gear in the meantime). Based on my previos DPS spec comparisons... (12-14-2011 03:12 AM)lgw Wrote: Premises: ... let's look at mixed Darkness specs, that are capable of tanking but also DPSing. NB: We'll not be using Dark Charge Dark Charge Sith Inquisitor (Assassin) Force: -50 Activation time: Instant Damage Type: Internal Mirror: Combat Technique Charges your lightsaber with dark energy, giving your attacks a 50% chance to drain life force from the target, dealing [<1>] internal damage and healing you for [?]. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Increases your armor rating by 150%, shield chance by 15% and threat generation by 50%. While active, melee bonus damage is reduced by 5%. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth. Hybrid Darkness (23 Dark / 16 Mad / 2 Dark): 1309 DPS Force available (5 min): 3220 F
Now that's what I call a pretty respectable number ! That's the same amount we initially got out of the cookie cutter 31 Deception spec... but now we're running with a major investment in our tanking tree, and possibly leaving out one of our main DPS assets (regular critical Shock Shock Sith Inquisitor Force: -45 Range: 10m Activation time: Instant Cooldown: 6 secs Damage Type: Energy Mirror: Project Shocks the target for [?] energy damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds. A "light" tanking build as 28 Madness / 13 Darkness might push out even a bit more DPS, but that would significantly hurt our tanking abilities and hence is of questionable value. And we're already up to Claws of Decay / Raze in Madness, which are two of the four key abiliities to improve DPS (the other being Unearthed Arcana and the DOT improvements in T5/6). |
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12-16-2011, 02:48 AM
Post: #42
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
Quote:Furthermore using Pr at least every 10s allows you to keep up your +9% crit and maintain HS stacks, which are important buffs. That was the intention. Problem with this is that at a rate of once per 10 seconds, project will be eating up nearly half of your energy regen during that 10 second window. That'll leave you only 59 + up to 20 more Force from Lightning Reflexs to live off of during the next ~6-7 GCDs. Keep in mind that with a force pool of only 100, you can't use the caster trick of sacrificing sustainability for immediate burst. If you're spamming Lacerate in between, you only get to fill 1-3 of those GCDs with anything but Saber Strike. Efficiency is just as important as raw dps, perhaps more so, and that applies even to tanks. Even Angels must kill from time to time...
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12-20-2011, 02:15 PM
Post: #43
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
(12-15-2011 10:32 PM)lgw Wrote: Using FP on Project only increases it's crit bonus damage... which will already be fairly solid as the first 20-30% Surge are super, super cheap. Hence I choose to FP TT & ST as the former is very solid damage itself, and the latter has an increased aggro mod. FP on TT also allows me to pull at 30m if I need to. Since pretty much everything else you have has a 10m range, the tactical advantages of a 30m pulling tool are lost on me. For a Balance Shadow, I could see it. For a Kinetic, not so much. Moving on, you overlook the contribution of that additional bonus damage as compared to the higher crit rate, as well as the baseline damage of the abilities they are modifying. Project is, de facto, the only ability you can justifiably use FP on as a Kinetic Shadow in an ST threat situation barring very strange situations. Even for pulling, TK Throw isn't going to be worth it since TK Throw isn't worth using from a damage or threat perspective without 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows. Slow Time would only be a justifiable use of FP in an AoE scenario. Here is why (and let's assume your Kinetic is Surge stacked to some extent, rather than Accuracy, which is likely going to be a more important threat generation attribute; baseline crit mod of 1.7 instead of 1.5): Before FP, Project is going to deal ~10500 damage (4000 (base) * (1.25 (Shadow's Training) * 1.15 (Bombardment) * 1.7 (Particle Acceleration guaranteed crit) + .45 * .5 (Upheaval)) and generate ~12250 threat. With FP (increase the crit damage to 2.2), Project instead deals ~13500 damage and generates ~15500 threat, an increase of ~3000 damage and ~3250 threat. Before FP, a non-HS TK Throw is going to deal ~4420 damage (4000 (base) * (1 + .15 (crit chance) * .7 (crit value)). With FP (.65 crit chance), the damage increases to ~5820, an increase of only 1400 damage and, because there is no improved threat mod, 1400 threat. With 3 stacks of HS, since it's a flat out 75% increase in damage, the values are increased by a factor of 1.75, to ~7735 damage without, ~10200 with, for an increase of only 2450 damage and threat. Before FP, Slow Time on a single target is going to deal ~900 damage (630 (base) * 1.3 (Force Break) * (1 + .15 (crit chance) * .7 (crit value)) and ~1350 threat (1.5 high threat mod). With FP (.65 critical chance), it will deal ~1200 damage and ~1800 threat, an improvement of ~300 damage and ~450 threat. Keep in mind that, since we're referring exclusively to the benefits granted by Force Potency as used within the confines of existing use paradigms, the only variable that matters is going to be the increase in performance. Because of this, it's relatively obvious that Project is roundly victorious. The only ability that gets even remotely close is a 5 target Slow Time and even that is sub-par from a pure damage or threat generation perspective. With some simple mental math, it's even more obvious why PA Project benefits more than Slow Time or TK Throw. Ignoring base damage completely, FP causes PA Project to deal 33% more damage outright (1.5 base damage into 2.0 base damage); FP for all other powers grants an improved chance (roughly 40% better) to deal 50% more damage; this means the improvement is only about a 20% improvement in damage. Even if all of the powers in question did the same amount of damage (of which PA Project is the de facto king of anyways), PA Project would still be the best bet because of how it benefits as compared to how everything else benefits. Yes, this does mean that you're relying on PA procs in order to do this and that, in order to get the most bang for your buck, you need to avoid using any damaging Force power that isn't Project while FP is active. All this means is that your best bet is to use it immediately after you have refreshed Force Break and Slow Time so that you have the longest window to achieve PA procs. Even assuming terrible luck, you'll still get at least 1 PA Project in before you have to reapply debuffs, which is going to give you more than you would get from specifically using it to augment TK Throw and Slow Time in the first place. (12-16-2011 02:48 AM)Kor Wrote: Problem with this is that at a rate of once per 10 seconds, project will be eating up nearly half of your energy regen during that 10 second window. You're actually a bit wrong on this account: it's close to one-third. With One with the Force and Double-bladed Saber Defense, your regen is roughly to 11.4 Force/sec. Since talented Project only costs 39 Force, it's consuming 34% of your regened Force for the period. Also keep in mind that everything else you use is relatively cheap considering you regen ~17 Force every GCD. The only ability aside from Project that is appreciably expensive is Slow Time. This is the biggest issue with any use of Project I've found. While it hits like a truck, generates threat like a beast, and is used to access Harnessed Shadows, it eats Force like there is no tomorrow. The high cost forces it to be an ability you only use when you specifically need to generate threat and damage on a single target and are planning on using TK Throw after your third (because, once you have Harnessed Shadows, Project should as the method to generate HS stacks, as I see it). In an AoE situation, none of these are true. In a boss + adds scenario, it's debatable, especially depending on how much threat your DPS throws out and how quickly the adds need to die in relation to the boss. Also, to comment on buff maintenance, whether the 9% crit is worth the loss of AoE damage is up for debate (maintaining HS stacks isn't a viable goal since you should be using TK Throw as soon as you get 3 stacks of HS; the obscene Force cost of maintaining HS with continued Projects renders such a strategy functionally irrelevant since the primary advantage of HS is that you get a functionally free high damage partial heal for doing your normal attack string). A single Project is going to deal ~9500 damage (4000 * (1.25 (Shadow's Training) * 1.15 (Bombardment) * 1.5 (Particle Acceleration guaranteed crit) + .45 * .5 (Upheaval)), but only to a single target. Assuming 5 targets, Whirling Blow is going to deal ~1135 damage (1000 * (1.06 (Applied Force) + .15 (assumed base crit rate) * .5 (assumed default crit value))), but to 5 targets. The 9% crit buff is going to generate an additional ~45 damage per target (~225 total), which isn't an appreciable increase compared to the lost AoE damage thanks to using Project. So, since Project and Whirling Blow are functionally cost identical, the decision requires you to choose between dealing ~8500 more damage to one target and ~1200 less to all other targets per Project cycle or simply dealing a flat quantity of damage to all targets. The buff maintenance doesn't really create an appreciable factor in the decision making process since the baseline damage of the abilities themselves has a more substantial effect on their use (and since you can expect at least some of your Slow Time or Force Breach to crit). |
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12-23-2011, 06:02 AM
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2011 06:10 AM by veshzan.)
Post: #44
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
I was wondering has anyone worked out the stat weight yet for Sin's.
Playing deception atm and wondering about whats better Power or Crit ect. *edit* Does accuary help much overall with dps as im little confused on the wording ingame. Does it reduce armor and work like armor pen or does it just reduce the parry/dodge/miss chance ? |
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12-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Post: #45
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
Quote:*edit* Does accuary help much overall with dps as im little confused on the wording ingame. Does it reduce armor and work like armor pen or does it just reduce the parry/dodge/miss chance ? It decreases your chance to miss the target until that chance is zero, after which is decreases your chance to be dodged/parried/resisted by the target. Even Angels must kill from time to time...
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01-12-2012, 12:01 AM
Post: #46
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
(12-23-2011 06:02 AM)veshzan Wrote: I was wondering has anyone worked out the stat weight yet for Sin's. I've been wondering this as well. Or the math on the stats? I.e. 1 power = 2 crit = 3 willpower... something of the kind. I have a really hard time deciding on gear because I read that WP and crit should be or main stats, but, if I am gaining other stats, should I give up, say 10 crit for 5 WP? I'd like to know the math 
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01-13-2012, 03:24 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2012 03:26 AM by Pyrinoc.)
Post: #47
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
I'm not sure if a tool like this exists yet or not, but I made a spreadsheet to try and help determine what different rotations might look like for a tanking Shadow/Assassin. It shows the CD and/or duration left for buffs (Slow Time, Particle Acceleration, etc), and allows you to choose your priority list/rotation with certain parameters to play around with different ideas.
I'd be interested to hear what other people think about it or if anyone has any suggestions. Thanks! Also, hitting the Del key on a blank cell will cause the random numbers to generate again, so that you can see what the rotation would look like under different circumstances. Cells that can be modified: The 'Total Regen' cell at the top, and the 'GCD' cell at the top. (Currently I have the GCD at 1.6 just to see, but it can and probably should be set to 1.5) Anything in the 'Rotation' table on the left side. Kinetic Ward's 'Eff' column (E11) will determine when it needs to be refreshed. |
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01-17-2012, 01:14 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2012 01:20 AM by Makk.)
Post: #48
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RE: DPS Spec Comparison
(12-15-2011 11:25 PM)lgw Wrote: OK, so even tank-y specs are supposed to do good damage in SWTOR. Let's put this to a test... First - this is awesome info. Some questions: 1) You mention "leaving out one of our main DPS assets: Shock", but you in fact do have skills into Chain Shock & Torment. Why is Shock left out of the DPS rotation? (you still use it in the tank rotation?) 2) You have points into Sith Defiance and not Crackling Charge - if the intent is to be able to DPS (and you are using Lightning Charge for the DPS mode), is putting those points into Crackling Charge instead a viable option or does the elimination of Sith Defiance hurt the tanking too much? 3) The 'usual' hybrid tank build seems to be a 25/0/16 - how do you believe that compares to the build you posted? (it seems the tradeoff there is eliminating Maul but getting Swelling Shadows?). 4) Also, did you run the math, for comparison purposes, with being on 'DPS mode' on the full Darkness (31/0/10) tank build? 5) You mention on DPS mode you dont want to have Dark Charge on because you will get aggro - not last long. However, since you are a tank build.. shouldnt you be able to handle the aggro? (or is the reason because given you are on DPS mode.. your buffs/items/etc are the DPS ones and not the tank ones and thus your survivability is lower than tank mode.. I think I may have answered my own question there..) Thanks much! |
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01-17-2012, 08:58 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2012 10:39 AM by Mordus.)
Post: #49
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
Hi guys,
Love the input you guys are putting into this. I was wondering if you minded putting some math to these 5 builds I'm trying to review for dps. I am unsure how to calculate damage but I will attempt to math out the force available & spend. To enable Igw to math out what is best to spend the remaining force on. The idea behind these are a long sustained damage flow, doing so by maximising force throughput. First: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200MZhGMRkhMrtzZf0c.1 2 Dark / 31 Dec / 8 Mad Surging Charge Rotation: 2x Voltaic then 1x Shock then Saber Strike repeat. Force available (5 min): 3044 F
Force used (200 GCD): 2920 F
Force Balance: 124 What is the force burn rate? and how does its DPS compare over the same time period you've been using for your other specs? As the balance is positive I assume this means a positive burn rate(I'm not sure how to calculate it), there is room to add 6 discharges or 5 Mauls in place of Saber Strikes. Second: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200RIM...MMzZcMcM.1 18 Dark / 13 Dec / 10 Mad Lightning Charge Rotation: 2x Thrash then 1x Shock then Saber Strike Force available (5 min): 3462 F
Force used (200 GCD): 2640 F
Force Balance: 822 What is the force burn rate? and how does its DPS compare over the same time period you've been using for your other specs? As the balance is positive I assume this means a positive burn rate(I'm not sure how to calculate it), there is room to add Mauls/Assassinates in place of Saber Strikes. Third: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200RIM...RkoZf00M.1 18 Dark / 16 Decep / 7 Mad Surging Charge Rotation: 2x Thrash then 1x Shock then Saber Strike Force available (5 min): 3462 F
Force used (200 GCD): 2640 F
Force Balance: 892 What is the force burn rate? and how does its DPS compare over the same time period you've been using for your other specs? As the balance is positive I assume this means a positive burn rate(I'm not sure how to calculate it), there is room to add Mauls/Assassinates in place of Saber Strikes. This build pretty much asks is Surging Charge + 70 force over 5 minutes better than chain shock. Fourth: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200RIM...fMfRr0kM.1 18 Dark / 0 / 23 Mad Lightning Charge Rotation: No Idea beyond Death field -> dots Force available (5 min): 3620 F
Fifth: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200RIM...GMRkhMZc.1 18 Dark / 20 Dec / 3 Madness Surging Charge Rotation: 2x Thrash then 1x Shock then Saber Strike Force available (5 min): 3764 F
Force used (200 GCD): 2920 F
Force Balance: 844 What is the force burn rate? and how does its DPS compare over the same time period you've been using for your other specs? As the balance is positive I assume this means a positive burn rate(I'm not sure how to calculate it), there is room to add Mauls/Assassinates in place of Saber Strikes. |
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01-19-2012, 10:52 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2012 10:59 AM by Kaedis.)
Post: #50
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RE: May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)
(12-14-2011 03:12 AM)lgw Wrote: OK, here we go...[snip] I've spent a considerable amount of time learning how you've mathed out these rotations, I am unable to reproduce your damage values for shock or crushing darkness. They are both effected by armor, but I believe your calculations aren't taking armor into effect for these 2 abilities. Edit: Don't quote massive posts, only quote the part you are actually replying to. ~Kor |
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