May The Force Be With You ! (managing the Sith Assassin's / Jedi Shadow's resources)

[Kaedis]

Just realized I made an error in the Surging Charge entry. I used the level 50 StandardHealth value for it's base damage, but it's a skilled ability, so it should be using the level 20 entry instead:

Surging Charge

Surging Charge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -50
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Internal
Mirror: Shadow Technique

Charges your lightsaber with raw surging Force, giving your attacks a 25% chance to deal [<1>] internal damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.

: 34.4% FBonus + 26.86 (Internal)

Similarly, Voltaic Slash should be using the level 40 value:

Voltaic Slash

Voltaic Slash
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -25
Range: Melee (4m)
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Clairvoyant Strike

Strikes the target twice, dealing [<1>] weapon damage with each hit. Each use of this ability increases the damage dealt by your next Shock by 15%. Stacks up to 2 times.

: 107% Weapon + 160% MBonus + 220.8 (2 attacks) (Weapon)

Ensure you didn't make a similar mistake with your equations for Wither and Crushing Darkness, lgw.

[lgw]

OK, now you lost me.
I looked at the formula thread again, and I don't see when I should use what level StdHP. Could you elaborate ?

I certainly used only L50 values. I'll have to fix both my coefficient and my data sheet for DPS predictions... tomorrow.

[Kaedis]

The AmountModifierPercent that you multiplied against 1610 to get the base damage? 1610 is the level 50 entry. You need to use the level of the highest rank available, which for talents is the level it's first available(ie. minimum talent points needed to get it + 9). The table itself is in the OP of the formula thread.

[Kitru]

I didn't see much of any math as it applies to Assassin/Shadow tanking, so I decided to repost the math I did on my own. It doesn't deal with generating specific attack strings since, with very different CDs on many of the abilities, it would be clumsy to do so. Instead, I focused on use paradigms (i.e. how the abilities would be used) and operated under the assumption that any conflicts would defer to the priority of importance and achieve performance roughly on par with the predicted results.

Here's some Force consumption maths to consider.

With One with the Force, default Force Regen is 10.4 Force/second regen. With Combat Technique and Double-bladed Saber Defense, you get 2 Force back with every shield, parry, or deflect once every second. Assuming a 65% chance to do so (30% Defense chance with 50% shield Chance) and 1 attack per second (multiattacks count as multiple attacks), you can expect a further ~1.3 Force/sec, for a total of 11.7 Force/sec.

Based upon the use paradigm for each ability, we can determine what the average cost over time of using these abilities in such a way will be. As such, I will be defining the use paradigm of each ability in terms of how often it will be used (with explanations given in parenthesis), the percentage of your activation time will be consumed with this use paradigm (this number will deviate from reality to some extent since not all abilities have use ratios that perfectly sync with one another), and, based on the Force cost, what the average Force consumption for using such an ability in such a way will be. I will be assuming an overlap of a single GCD for debuffs in order to prevent any losses of the debuff. Since DS use exists largely to proc PA, the number of uses is designed to demonstrate the average number of uses required to get a PA proc as determined by the limit of the sum of .5^n as from 0 to infinity as n approaches infinity (which equals 2).

Force Breach (maintain 18 second debuff):
1 every 16.5 seconds ; 20 Force; 9.1% activation use; -1.21 Force/sec
Kinetic Ward (recast immediately when debuff falls off (every 8 shield successes or 20 seconds); with a 50% block chance (5% base, 15% shield, 15% CT, 15% KW), 36.5% of attacks will be blocked rather than dodged or hit; assuming 1 attack every GCD, 8 shield successes will take 32 seconds):
1 every 20 seconds; 10 Force; 0% activation use; -.50 Force/sec
Alternate Kinetic Ward (recast on cooldown):
1 every 12 seconds; 10 Force; 0% activation time; -.83 Force/sec

(Heavy) Slow Time (recast on CD):
1 every 7.5 seconds; 30 Force; 20% activation time; -4.00 Force/sec
(Easy) Slow Time (maintain 15 second debuff):
1 every 13.5 seconds; 30 Force; 11.1% activation time; -2.22 Force/sec

(Heavy TK) Double Strike (to trigger Particle Acceleration for Project crits for Harnessed Shadows stacks; assuming 21 second TK Throw cycle)
3 every 21 seconds (3 iterations of 2 every 6 seconds with 3 second wait after (for TK Throw)); 23 Force; 43% activation time; -6.58 Force/sec
(Easy TK) Double Strike (to trigger Particle Acceleration for Project crits for Harnessed Shadows stacks; assuming 30 second TK Throw cycle)
3 every 30 seconds (3 iterations of 2 every 9 seconds with 3 second wait after (for TK Throw)); 23 Force, 30% activation time; -4.60 Force/sec

(Heavy TK) Project (with Particle Acceleration to trigger Harnessed Shadows and Force Synergy; assuming 21 second TK Throw cycle):
3 every 21 seconds(3 iterations of 1 every 6 seconds with 3 second wait after (for TK Throw)); 39 Force; 21.5% activation time; -5.57 Force/sec
(Easy TK) Project (with Particle Acceleration to trigger Harnessed Shadows and Force Synergy; assuming 30 second TK Throw cycle):
3 every 30 seconds(3 iterations of 1 every 9 seconds with 3 second wait after (for TK Throw)); 39 Force; 15% activation time; -3.90 Force/sec

(Heavy) Telekinetic Throw (every 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows; assuming 21 second TK Throw cycle):
1 every 21 seconds; 30 Force; 14.3% activation time; 30 Force; -1.43 Force/sec
(Easy) Telekinetic Throw (every 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows; assuming 30 second TK Throw cycle):
1 every 30 seconds; 30 Force; 10% activation time; 30 Force; -1.00 Force/sec

To determine consumption, the appropriate use paradigms must be chosen. Slow Time will either be used on CD (higher threat, higher cost) or to maintain the debuff (lower threat, lower cost). Telekinetic Throw should be used, on average, either once every 21 seconds or once every 30 seconds (it can be used faster than this thanks to PA procs removing the Project CD, but, since I'm assuming average values, the standard recharge on Project seem appropriate to signify use of other, high priority abilities). All in all, this gives us 4 overall use paradigms (Heavy Slow Time + Heavy Telekinetic Throw; Heavy ST + Easy TK; Easy ST + Heavy TK; Easy ST + Easy TK). Kinetic Ward's 2 use paradigms are based on differing assumptions of blocks over time; the disparity between the two will be reflected in a range of net loss. Sustainability is determined by dividing the 100 starting Force by a net loss to determine how long the use paradigms could be maintained (this does not take any lack of Force at any specific time into consideration, so the number is likely to be substantially lower given the high costs of some abilities (re: Project))

Heavy/Heavy:
Non-Saber Strike animation use: 107.9% (9.1 + 0 + 20 + 43 + 21.5 + 14.3)
107.9% animation time = not possible

Heavy/Easy:
Non-Saber Strike animation use: 84.1% (9.1 + 0 + 20 + 30 + 15 + 10)
Total Consumption: 15.21-15.54 Force/sec (1.21 + (.5 or .83) + 4.0 + 4.6 + 3.9 + 1)
Net Loss: 3.51 to 3.84 Force/sec
Sustainability: 28.49 to 26.04 seconds

Easy/Heavy:
Non-Saber Strike animation use: 99% (9.1 + 0 + 11.1 + 43 + 21.5 + 14.3)
Total Consumption: 17.51-17.84 Force/sec (1.21 + (.5 or .83) + 2.22 + 6.58 + 5.57 + 1.43)
Net Loss: 6.14 to 6.47 Force/sec
Sustainability: 16.29 to 15.46 seconds

Easy/Easy:
Non-Saber Strike animation use: 75.2% (9.1 + 0 + 11.1 + 30 + 15 +10)
Total Consumption: 13.43-13.76 Force/sec (1.21 + (.5 or .83) + 2.22 + 4.6 + 3.9 + 1)
Net Loss: 1.73 to 2.06 Force/sec
Sustainability: 57.80 to 48.54 seconds

Overall the conclusion to be drawn is that none of the paradigms are infinitely sustainable. Without lucky PA procs, the Heavy/Heavy paradigm is actually impossible and not even the Easy/Easy Paradigm is actually entirely sustainable for long fights. Because of this I have designed the "sustainable" paradigm, which uses the easy Slow Time use paradigm coupled with a 6 second additional wait period (for additional Saber Strikes) added to the Easy TK Throw paradigm.

(Sustainable) Double Strike (to trigger Particle Acceleration for Project crits for Harnessed Shadows stacks; assuming 33 second TK Throw cycle)
3 every 36 seconds (3 iterations of 2 every 9 seconds with 6 second wait after (for TK Throw and Saber Strikes)); 23 Force, 25% activation time; -3.83 Force/sec
(Sustainable) Project (with Particle Acceleration to trigger Harnessed Shadows and Force Synergy; assuming 36 second TK Throw cycle):
3 every 36 seconds(3 iterations of 1 every 9 seconds with 6 second wait after (for TK Throw and Saber Strikes)); 39 Force; 12.5% activation time; -3.25 Force/sec
(Sustainable) Telekinetic Throw (every 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows; assuming 36 second TK Throw cycle):
1 every 36 seconds; 30 Force; 8.3% activation time; 30 Force; -.83 Force/sec

Sustainable:
Non-Saber Strike animation use: 66% (9.1 + 0 + 11.1 + 25 + 12.5 + 8.3)
Total Consumption: 11.84-12.17 Force/sec (1.21 + (.5 or .83) + 2.22 + 3.83 + 3.25 + .83)
Net Loss: .14 Force/sec to .47 Force/sec
Sustainability: 714.3 (11.9) to 212.8 (3.55) seconds (minutes)

[lgw]

Great work there !

I think the best combo is the Heavy/Easy, as past the initial aggro push I feel keeping TT/FL ready for the heal makes sense. Single adds can be easily picked up with a critical Project/Shock.
It's good to see that this combo is relatively sustainable.

But I would be interested in a short review of AOE threat generation.
1) For two targets it might work out better to manually tab targets (ensuring proper priority).
2) Full AOE pressure strains our pool heavily. ST > FB > FW are not too expensive, but then you have to fall back to WB/La, which is quite costy at 40. Maintaining at least one Pr/Sh every 10s and KW/DW can be very demanding to your Force pool during the intial period to generate snap aggro.

If you wouldn't mind to add a bit of formatting for easier reading to your post, I'd gladly link it in my OP.

(12-14-2011 04:54 PM)Kor Wrote:  The AmountModifierPercent that you multiplied against 1610 to get the base damage? 1610 is the level 50 entry. You need to use the level of the highest rank available, which for talents is the level it's first available(ie. minimum talent points needed to get it + 9). The table itself is in the OP of the formula thread.

Makes sense.
Now I just gonna have to find a list for abilities and ranks...

[Kitru]

(12-14-2011 10:15 PM)lgw Wrote:  I think the best combo is the Heavy/Easy, as past the initial aggro push I feel keeping TT/FL ready for the heal makes sense. Single adds can be easily picked up with a critical Project/Shock.
It's good to see that this combo is relatively sustainable.

Because the only truly long term sustainable use paradigm is the easy/easy, I predict that, for a majority of fights, it will the be standby. I doubt it will have any real problems with threat generation, since it still gives you plenty of space for DS>Project nastiness.

For Ops, where maintaining specific debuffs (such as Force Breach or Slow Time) is not going to be an issue thanks to the presence of another tank, it might get easier, but, even so, the biggest drain on Force is, and always will be, the DS>Project combo, which is the major threat generator. I can predict Shadows having rather spectacular problems with tank swap fights because we don't really have the ability to save up for a nice big burst of threat all at once, beyond a couple of quick FP + DS>Project that is going to leave us almost completely dry.

Quote:1) For two targets it might work out better to manually tab targets (ensuring proper priority).

I agree with this. Without a larger number of targets, there is little reason to deviate from an alternating single target mentality, especially considering the low efficiency of many of our tank abilities at low target quantities.

Quote:2) Full AOE pressure strains our pool heavily. ST > FB > FW are not too expensive, but then you have to fall back to WB/La, which is quite costy at 40. Maintaining at least one Pr/Sh every 10s and KW/DW can be very demanding to your Force pool during the intial period to generate snap aggro.

I doubt any use of Project will be viable in an AoE threat generation scenario. It may hit like a truck, but the cost is prohibitive. Assuming you have 4-5 targets to beat on, it's going to be more efficient to simply fall back on ST(on CD)>FB(for debuff)>WB, especially with WB about as hard as Project while costing less and dividing damage and threat evenly. The DS>Project>TK set up is simply too expensive and specific to ST damage dealing to be useful for the purposes of averaged AoE threat generation, and incidental AoE threat from the single target threat generation set up (TK Throw's heal, Slow Time, Force Breach) is likely going to be more than enough to deal with situations where you have multiple foes but everyone is beating on a single target, so your only real AoE threat worry is the healer.

Quote:If you wouldn't mind to add a bit of formatting for easier reading to your post, I'd gladly link it in my OP.

I never really got the hang of complex formatting for forums. If someone else wants to give me a hand with it or has any recommendations, they're welcome to it, but, otherwise, the changes I just put in are about as good as you're going to get out of me. I prefer just dealing with my maths.

[lgw]

OK, a short overview of what IMHO is our current best L50 damage spec. (cf post #30)

28 Madness / 13 Deception / 0 Darkness (28 Balance / 13 Infiltration / 0 Kinetic Combat)
(4p in Madness / Balance and 2-5p in Deception / Infiltration can be moved around to customise the spec as long as you keep all damage and Force efficiency talents.)

Selfbuffs:

• Lightning Charge
  Lightning Charge
  Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
  
  Force: -50
  Activation time: Instant
  Damage Type: Energy
  Mirror: Force Technique
  
  Charges your lightsaber with lightning, giving your attacks a 50% chance to deal [<1>] energy damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.
  
  / Force Technique
  Force Technique
  Jedi Consular (Shadow)
  
  Force: -50
  Activation time: Instant
  Damage Type: Kinetic
  Mirror: Lightning Charge
  
  Assumes a Force technique, giving your attacks a 50% chance to deal [<1>] kinetic damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.
  
• Mark of Power
  Mark of Power
  Sith Inquisitor
  
  Range: 30m
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 6 secs
  Mirror: Force Valor
  
  Increases the target's strength, aim, willpower and cunning by 5% and internal and elemental damage reduction by 10% for 60 minutes. If the target is a party member, all other party members are also affected.
  
  / Force Valor
  Force Valor
  Jedi Consular
  
  Range: 30m
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 6 secs
  Mirror: Mark of Power
  
  Increases the target's Strength, Aim, Willpower and Cunning by 5% and internal and elemental damage reduction by 10% for 60 minutes. If the target is a party member, all other party members are also affected.
  

Perks:

• Top tier sustaind DPS
• Flexible rotation to cater burst / AOE / combat brake scenarios
• Well rounded for good performance in many situations (currently no dual specs available)

Execution

• Use abilities in order of priority from top to bottom. If something is on CD, skip to next. If a DOT ability is still running, use it on a secondary target or skip to next.
• Aside from their usual purposes Blackout
  Blackout
  Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
  
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 60 secs
  Mirror: Blackout
  
  Increases your stealth level by 15 for 8 seconds. Only usable in stealth mode.
  
  and Force Cloak
  Force Cloak
  Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
  
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 180 secs
  
  Uses the Force to vanish from sight, immediately exiting combat and entering stealth mode. For 10 seconds, you become virtually undetectable, but all healing done and received is decreased by 100%.
  
  can be used for on demand Force regeneration, best activated as early as possible.
• In group-PVE open with 6-3-7-(2)-7, then go into regular priority mode.
• In PVP or when solo mix in any other abilities (like CC) as needed.
• Unless you want to keep it for dedicated burst situations, use Overcharge Saber
  Overcharge Saber
  Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
  
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 120 secs
  Mirror: Battle Readiness
  
  Overcharges your current lightsaber charge for 15 seconds, increasing the damage dealt by Lightning Charge and Surging Charge by 100% and the healing done by Dark Charge by 300%.
  
  / Battle Readiness
  Battle Readiness
  Jedi Consular (Shadow)
  
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 120 secs
  Mirror: Overcharge Saber
  
  Readies yourself with the Force, increasing the damage dealt by Force and Shadow Technique by 100% and the healing done by Combat Technique by 300%. Lasts 15 seconds.
  
  and Recklessness
  Recklessness
  Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
  
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 90 secs
  Mirror: Force Potency
  
  Grants 2 charges of Recklessness, which increases the Force critical chance of your direct attacks and heals by 60%. Each time a direct Force ability crits, you lose 1 charge. Lasts 20 seconds.
  
  / Force Potency
  Force Potency
  Jedi Consular (Shadow)
  
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 90 secs
  Mirror: Recklessness
  
  Grants 2 charges of Force Potency, which increases the Force critical chance of your direct attacks and heals by 60%. Each time a direct Force ability crits, you lose 1 charge. Lasts 20 seconds.
  
  (boosting Crushing Darkness
  Crushing Darkness
  Sith Inquisitor
  
  Force: -40
  Range: 10m
  Activation time: 2.0 secs
  Cooldown: 15 secs
  Damage Type: Kinetic
  Mirror: Mind Crush
  
  Summons a dark cloud of energy to crush the target, instantly dealing [?] kinetic damage and an additional [?] kinetic damage over 6 seconds.
  
  / Mind Crush
  Mind Crush
  Jedi Consular
  
  Force: -40
  Range: 10m
  Activation time: 2.0 secs
  Cooldown: 15 secs
  Damage Type: Kinetic
  Mirror: Crushing Darkness
  
  Crushes the target's mind with the Force, instantly dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and an additional [<2>] kinetic damage over 6 seconds.
  
  and Discharge
  Discharge
  Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
  
  Force: -20
  Range: 10m
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 15 secs
  Mirror: Force Breach
  
  Unleashes your current lightsaber charge upon the target, applying an effect based on your current charge. Only usable with a charged lightsaber. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.Lightning Charge: Deals [<2>] periodic energy damage over 18 seconds.Dark Charge: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.Surging Charge: Deals [<1>] internal damage.
  
  / Force Breach
  Force Breach
  Jedi Consular (Shadow)
  
  Force: -20
  Range: 10m
  Activation time: Instant
  Cooldown: 15 secs
  Mirror: Discharge
  
  Locates and breaches the target's shatterpoint, causing an effect based on your current technique. Only usable while a technique is active. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.
  Force Technique: Deals [<2>] periodic kinetic damage over 18 seconds.
  Combat Technique: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.
  Shadow Technique: Deals [<1>] internal damage.
  
  ) on CD.

Single Target:

1. Assassinate
   Assassinate
   Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
   
   Force: -25
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Spinning Strike
   
   Attempts to assassinate the target, dealing [<1>] weapon damage. Only usable on targets at or below 30% max health.
   
   / Spinning Strike
   Spinning Strike
   Jedi Consular (Shadow)
   
   Force: -25
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Assassinate
   
   Issues a subduing strike, dealing [<1>] weapon damage. Only usable on targets at or below 30% max health.
   
2. Crushing Darkness
   Crushing Darkness
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -40
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: 2.0 secs
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Mind Crush
   
   Summons a dark cloud of energy to crush the target, instantly dealing [?] kinetic damage and an additional [?] kinetic damage over 6 seconds.
   
   / Mind Crush
   Mind Crush
   Jedi Consular
   
   Force: -40
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: 2.0 secs
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Crushing Darkness
   
   Crushes the target's mind with the Force, instantly dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and an additional [<2>] kinetic damage over 6 seconds.
   
   (with Raze / Force Strike)
3. Death Field
   Death Field
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -50
   Range: 30m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Internal
   Mirror: The Force In Balance
   
   Creates a death field at the target location, dealing [?] internal damage and stealing [?] health from up to 3 targets within an 8-meter radius.
   
   / Force in Balance
   Force in Balance
   Jedi Consular (Sage)
   
   Force: -50
   Range: 30m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Internal
   Mirror: Death Field
   
   Deals [<1>] internal damage to up to 3 targets within 8 meters of the targeted area and heals you for [?] per affected target.
   
   (if less than 3 Deathmarks/Force Suppressions left)
4. Shock
   Shock
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -45
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Energy
   Mirror: Project
   
   Shocks the target for [?] energy damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
   
   / Project
   Project
   Jedi Consular
   
   Force: -45
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Shock
   
   Throws debris at the target, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
   
   (if less than 4s on Unearthed Arcana / Twin Disciplines)
5. Maul
   Maul
   Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
   
   Force: -50
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Shadow Strike
   
   Deals [<1>] weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.
   
   / Shadow Strike
   Shadow Strike
   Jedi Consular (Shadow)
   
   Force: -50
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Maul
   
   Deals [<1>] weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.
   
   (with Expose Weakness / Find Weakness)
6. Discharge
   Discharge
   Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
   
   Force: -20
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Mirror: Force Breach
   
   Unleashes your current lightsaber charge upon the target, applying an effect based on your current charge. Only usable with a charged lightsaber. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.Lightning Charge: Deals [<2>] periodic energy damage over 18 seconds.Dark Charge: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.Surging Charge: Deals [<1>] internal damage.
   
   / Force Breach
   Force Breach
   Jedi Consular (Shadow)
   
   Force: -20
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Mirror: Discharge
   
   Locates and breaches the target's shatterpoint, causing an effect based on your current technique. Only usable while a technique is active. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.
   Force Technique: Deals [<2>] periodic kinetic damage over 18 seconds.
   Combat Technique: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.
   Shadow Technique: Deals [<1>] internal damage.
   
   (if > 35 F)
7. Thrash
   Thrash
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -25
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Double Strike
   
   Strikes the target twice. Each hit deals [?] weapon damage.
   
   / Double Strike
   Double Strike
   Jedi Consular
   
   Force: -25
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Thrash
   
   Strikes the target twice. Each hit deals [<1>] weapon damage.
   
   (if > 35 F)
8. Saber Strike
   Saber Strike
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   
   Deals [?] weapon damage spread across a flurry of 3 melee attacks.
   
9. Shock
   Shock
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -45
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Energy
   Mirror: Project
   
   Shocks the target for [?] energy damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
   
   / Project
   Project
   Jedi Consular
   
   Force: -45
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Shock
   
   Throws debris at the target, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
   
   (with 2x Induction / Circling Shadows)
10. Force Lightning
    Force Lightning
    Sith Inquisitor
    
    Force: -30
    Range: 10m
    Channel time: 3.0 secs
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Energy
    Mirror: Telekinetic Throw
    
    Deals [?] energy damage to the target over the duration of the effect. Also slows the movement speed of the target by 50% and immobilizes weak and standard enemies.
    
    / Telekinetic Throw
    Telekinetic Throw
    Jedi Consular
    
    Force: -30
    Range: 10m
    Channel time: 3.0 secs
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Kinetic
    Mirror: Force Lightning
    
    Hurls a volley of debris at the target, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and slowing movement speed by 50%. Standard and weak targets are instead immobilized for the duration.
    
11. Shock
    Shock
    Sith Inquisitor
    
    Force: -45
    Range: 10m
    Activation time: Instant
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Energy
    Mirror: Project
    
    Shocks the target for [?] energy damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
    
    / Project
    Project
    Jedi Consular
    
    Force: -45
    Range: 10m
    Activation time: Instant
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Kinetic
    Mirror: Shock
    
    Throws debris at the target, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
    

AOE (3+ targets):

1. Assassinate
   Assassinate
   Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
   
   Force: -25
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Spinning Strike
   
   Attempts to assassinate the target, dealing [<1>] weapon damage. Only usable on targets at or below 30% max health.
   
   / Spinning Strike
   Spinning Strike
   Jedi Consular (Shadow)
   
   Force: -25
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Assassinate
   
   Issues a subduing strike, dealing [<1>] weapon damage. Only usable on targets at or below 30% max health.
   
2. Crushing Darkness
   Crushing Darkness
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -40
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: 2.0 secs
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Mind Crush
   
   Summons a dark cloud of energy to crush the target, instantly dealing [?] kinetic damage and an additional [?] kinetic damage over 6 seconds.
   
   / Mind Crush
   Mind Crush
   Jedi Consular
   
   Force: -40
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: 2.0 secs
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Crushing Darkness
   
   Crushes the target's mind with the Force, instantly dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and an additional [<2>] kinetic damage over 6 seconds.
   
   (with Raze / Force Strike)
3. Death Field
   Death Field
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -50
   Range: 30m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Internal
   Mirror: The Force In Balance
   
   Creates a death field at the target location, dealing [?] internal damage and stealing [?] health from up to 3 targets within an 8-meter radius.
   
   / Force in Balance
   Force in Balance
   Jedi Consular (Sage)
   
   Force: -50
   Range: 30m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Damage Type: Internal
   Mirror: Death Field
   
   Deals [<1>] internal damage to up to 3 targets within 8 meters of the targeted area and heals you for [?] per affected target.
   
4. Shock
   Shock
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -45
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Energy
   Mirror: Project
   
   Shocks the target for [?] energy damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
   
   / Project
   Project
   Jedi Consular
   
   Force: -45
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 6 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Shock
   
   Throws debris at the target, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
   
   (if less than 4s on Unearthed Arcana / Twin Disciplines)
5. Maul
   Maul
   Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
   
   Force: -50
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Shadow Strike
   
   Deals [<1>] weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.
   
   / Shadow Strike
   Shadow Strike
   Jedi Consular (Shadow)
   
   Force: -50
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Maul
   
   Deals [<1>] weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.
   
   (with Expose Weakness / Find Weakness)
6. Discharge
   Discharge
   Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
   
   Force: -20
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Mirror: Force Breach
   
   Unleashes your current lightsaber charge upon the target, applying an effect based on your current charge. Only usable with a charged lightsaber. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.Lightning Charge: Deals [<2>] periodic energy damage over 18 seconds.Dark Charge: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.Surging Charge: Deals [<1>] internal damage.
   
   / Force Breach
   Force Breach
   Jedi Consular (Shadow)
   
   Force: -20
   Range: 10m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 15 secs
   Mirror: Discharge
   
   Locates and breaches the target's shatterpoint, causing an effect based on your current technique. Only usable while a technique is active. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.
   Force Technique: Deals [<2>] periodic kinetic damage over 18 seconds.
   Combat Technique: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.
   Shadow Technique: Deals [<1>] internal damage.
   
   (if > 35 F)
7. Lacerate
   Lacerate
   Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
   
   Force: -40
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Whirling Blow
   
   Deals [<1>] weapon damage to all nearby targets.
   
   / Whirling Blow
   Whirling Blow
   Jedi Consular (Shadow)
   
   Force: -40
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   Mirror: Lacerate
   
   Deals [<1>] weapon damage to all nearby targets.
   
   (if > 55 F)
8. Overload
   Overload
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Force: -20
   Range: 8m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 20 secs
   Damage Type: Energy
   Mirror: Force Wave
   
   Deals [?] energy damage and knocks back all enemies within 8 meters. Standard and weak enemies are additionally knocked down for 3 seconds.
   
   / Force Wave
   Force Wave
   Jedi Consular
   
   Force: -20
   Range: 8m
   Activation time: Instant
   Cooldown: 20 secs
   Damage Type: Kinetic
   Mirror: Overload
   
   Deals [<1>] kinetic damage and knocks back all enemies within 8 meters. Standard and weak enemies are additionally knocked down for 3 seconds.
   
   (if > 35 F)
9. Saber Strike
   Saber Strike
   Sith Inquisitor
   
   Range: Melee (4m)
   Activation time: Instant
   Damage Type: Weapon
   
   Deals [?] weapon damage spread across a flurry of 3 melee attacks.
   
10. Force Lightning
    Force Lightning
    Sith Inquisitor
    
    Force: -30
    Range: 10m
    Channel time: 3.0 secs
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Energy
    Mirror: Telekinetic Throw
    
    Deals [?] energy damage to the target over the duration of the effect. Also slows the movement speed of the target by 50% and immobilizes weak and standard enemies.
    
    / Telekinetic Throw
    Telekinetic Throw
    Jedi Consular
    
    Force: -30
    Range: 10m
    Channel time: 3.0 secs
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Kinetic
    Mirror: Force Lightning
    
    Hurls a volley of debris at the target, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and slowing movement speed by 50%. Standard and weak targets are instead immobilized for the duration.
    
11. Shock
    Shock
    Sith Inquisitor
    
    Force: -45
    Range: 10m
    Activation time: Instant
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Energy
    Mirror: Project
    
    Shocks the target for [?] energy damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
    
    / Project
    Project
    Jedi Consular
    
    Force: -45
    Range: 10m
    Activation time: Instant
    Cooldown: 6 secs
    Damage Type: Kinetic
    Mirror: Shock
    
    Throws debris at the target, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.
    

Gearing
First of cause more stats aber better than less, but given about equal choices, use this priority for damage:
-- Accuracy (till +10%) > Willpower > Crit > Surge (till +30-40%) > Power > Melee Power > Force Power > Strength --
For solo play you naturally want Endurance, some Defense and maybe Presence, and alike for PVP plus naturally Expertise and possibly Accuracy to +15-20%.

[lgw]

(12-14-2011 11:07 PM)Kitru Wrote:  I can predict Shadows having rather spectacular problems with tank swap fights because we don't really have the ability to save up for a nice big burst of threat all at once, beyond a couple of quick FP + DS>Project that is going to leave us almost completely dry.

First remember that our base DPS is somewhat higher than that of other specced tanks.
Then a crit Project > 3x HD TT > ST > FB, and TT/ST possibly enhanced using Force Potency

Force Potency
Jedi Consular (Shadow)

Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 90 secs
Mirror: Recklessness

Grants 2 charges of Force Potency, which increases the Force critical chance of your direct attacks and heals by 60%. Each time a direct Force ability crits, you lose 1 charge. Lasts 20 seconds.

is going to be a lot of aggro in a short amount of time. Afterwards pumping your pool dry using just DS/Pr is still a good amount of burst aggro.

My greater worry about tank swaps is that AFAIK Taunts don't put you on top of the threat list. Hence in longer fights two different tanks might diverge too far from each other, making swaps rather tricky. We're probably more on the "too much" aggro end.

(12-14-2011 11:07 PM)Kitru Wrote:  

Quote:2) Full AOE pressure strains our pool heavily. ST > FB > FW are not too expensive, but then you have to fall back to WB/La, which is quite costy at 40. Maintaining at least one Pr/Sh every 10s and KW/DW can be very demanding to your Force pool during the intial period to generate snap aggro.

I doubt any use of Project will be viable in an AoE threat generation scenario. It may hit like a truck, but the cost is prohibitive. Assuming you have 4-5 targets to beat on, it's going to be more efficient to simply fall back on ST(on CD)>FB(for debuff)>WB, especially with WB about as hard as Project while costing less and dividing damage and threat evenly. The DS>Project>TK set up is simply too expensive and specific to ST damage dealing to be useful for the purposes of averaged AoE threat generation, and incidental AoE threat from the single target threat generation set up (TK Throw's heal, Slow Time, Force Breach) is likely going to be more than enough to deal with situations where you have multiple foes but everyone is beating on a single target, so your only real AoE threat worry is the healer.

First remember that even in AOE situations, there is almost always a priority target -- add to burn first / keeping up aggro on the boss / ...
Second remember that WB can still proc PA, hence making Project hit hard and giving us full uptime on FS and maintaining HS as emergency heal. Force Wave

Force Wave
Jedi Consular

Force: -20
Range: 8m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Damage Type: Kinetic
Mirror: Overload

Deals [<1>] kinetic damage and knocks back all enemies within 8 meters. Standard and weak enemies are additionally knocked down for 3 seconds.

can be mixed in either for Force conservance or to give you a short respite.

(12-14-2011 11:07 PM)Kitru Wrote:  I never really got the hang of complex formatting for forums. If someone else wants to give me a hand with it or has any recommendations, they're welcome to it, but, otherwise, the changes I just put in are about as good as you're going to get out of me. I prefer just dealing with my maths.

The paragraphs help a lot, thanks - I'll link it in my OP.
If you want to improve a bit more, some simple bolds and italics (just use the buttons like in Office or so) go a long way, and the [-TIP-] [-/TIP-] (remove the - ) provides an easy way for mouse over abilities for less informed readers.

[Kitru]

(12-15-2011 12:57 AM)lgw Wrote:  Then a crit Project > 3x HD TT > ST > FB, and TT/ST possibly enhanced using Force Potency

Force Potency
Jedi Consular (Shadow)

Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 90 secs
Mirror: Recklessness

Grants 2 charges of Force Potency, which increases the Force critical chance of your direct attacks and heals by 60%. Each time a direct Force ability crits, you lose 1 charge. Lasts 20 seconds.

is going to be a lot of aggro in a short amount of time. Afterwards pumping your pool dry using just DS/Pr is still a good amount of burst aggro.

The best threat burst we're going to be capable of on a single target is going to be FP>DS>Project>DS>Project. ST, FB, and our other attacks are decent on threat, but nothing gets close to rivaling Project for sheer threat generations and outright damage dealt. Even with Force Potency, Project is going to deal more damage and generate more additional threat per charge than any other ability we have (I can provide maths if desired).

Quote:My greater worry about tank swaps is that AFAIK Taunts don't put you on top of the threat list. Hence in longer fights two different tanks might diverge too far from each other, making swaps rather tricky. We're probably more on the "too much" aggro end.

These would likely be situations where use of easy/easy or even lower consumption use paradigms would need to be implemented since, unlike the other tanks, we have a strong tendency to burn through our resources incredibly quickly. Tank swap fights would offer us periods of light threat generation (such as immediately after pulling threat off of the other tank) in order to generate Force and decrease the threat advantage.

Quote:Second remember that WB can still proc PA, hence making Project hit hard and giving us full uptime on FS and maintaining HS as emergency heal. Force Wave

Force Wave
Jedi Consular

Force: -20
Range: 8m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Damage Type: Kinetic
Mirror: Overload

Deals [<1>] kinetic damage and knocks back all enemies within 8 meters. Standard and weak enemies are additionally knocked down for 3 seconds.

can be mixed in either for Force conservance or to give you a short respite.

I forgot about WB triggering PA, but I'd still say that it's doubtful you would want to use it unless you're dealing with a single hard target and a large number of weak ones that you simply need to maintain threat on. Project costs a crapload, as does Whirling Blow (as compared to Double Strike for the purposes of generating PA for Project), so you would really need to have a strong justification for using Project while you're already dumping Force.

[lgw]

(12-15-2011 09:51 AM)Kitru Wrote:  

(12-15-2011 12:57 AM)lgw Wrote:  Then a crit Project > 3x HD TT > ST > FB, and TT/ST possibly enhanced using Force Potency

Force Potency
Jedi Consular (Shadow)

Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 90 secs
Mirror: Recklessness

Grants 2 charges of Force Potency, which increases the Force critical chance of your direct attacks and heals by 60%. Each time a direct Force ability crits, you lose 1 charge. Lasts 20 seconds.

is going to be a lot of aggro in a short amount of time. Afterwards pumping your pool dry using just DS/Pr is still a good amount of burst aggro.

The best threat burst we're going to be capable of on a single target is going to be FP>DS>Project>DS>Project. ST, FB, and our other attacks are decent on threat, but nothing gets close to rivaling Project for sheer threat generations and outright damage dealt. Even with Force Potency, Project is going to deal more damage and generate more additional threat per charge than any other ability we have (I can provide maths if desired).

Using FP on Project only increases it's crit bonus damage... which will already be fairly solid as the first 20-30% Surge are super, super cheap. Hence I choose to FP TT & ST as the former is very solid damage itself, and the latter has an increased aggro mod. FP on TT also allows me to pull at 30m if I need to.
Furthermore I like to have a reliable rotation and not gamble on DS proccing PA.

But in any way, both rotations are solid and will work well in practise... the above is just details.

(12-15-2011 09:51 AM)Kitru Wrote:  

Quote:Second remember that WB can still proc PA, hence making Project hit hard and giving us full uptime on FS and maintaining HS as emergency heal. Force Wave

Force Wave
Jedi Consular

Force: -20
Range: 8m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Damage Type: Kinetic
Mirror: Overload

Deals [<1>] kinetic damage and knocks back all enemies within 8 meters. Standard and weak enemies are additionally knocked down for 3 seconds.

can be mixed in either for Force conservance or to give you a short respite.

I forgot about WB triggering PA, but I'd still say that it's doubtful you would want to use it unless you're dealing with a single hard target and a large number of weak ones that you simply need to maintain threat on. Project costs a crapload, as does Whirling Blow (as compared to Double Strike for the purposes of generating PA for Project), so you would really need to have a strong justification for using Project while you're already dumping Force.

Virtually all add situations I know of still have priority targets - be it an add-burning order, boss plus adds, etc...
Furthermore using Pr at least every 10s allows you to keep up your +9% crit and maintain HS stacks, which are important buffs. That was the intention.