Shocking ! (an Analysis of the Sith Assassin / Jedi Shadow Core Skill)

[Pred]

Sorry we appear to be on different wave-lengths

I was discussing Charge Mastery vs Chain Shock, not Exploitative Strikes, for a 31pt Deception player.

[Scele]

(12-12-2011 08:56 AM)Pred Wrote:  Sorry we appear to be on different wave-lengths

I was discussing Charge Mastery vs Chain Shock, not Exploitative Strikes, for a 31pt Deception player.

I figured we were discussing the tier 1 talents, unless you were planning on getting exploitive strikes in madness and then charge mastery from Darkness. If the question is get chain shock or charge mastery when you are doing primarily AOE, then the answer is charge mastery. If you are doing mainly single target, get chain shock.

[lgw]

Things to keep in mind regarding AOE is that 31 Deception is already very Force inefficient, so if you face fights where you need sustained DPS, you'll want to run some Dec/Mad hybrid.
Both of them have solid AOE DPS built-in, due 1) Death Field

Death Field
Sith Inquisitor

Force: -50
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 15 secs
Damage Type: Internal
Mirror: The Force In Balance

Creates a death field at the target location, dealing [?] internal damage and stealing [?] health from up to 3 targets within an 8-meter radius.

and 2a) possible reduction on Lacerate

Lacerate
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -40
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Whirling Blow

Deals [<1>] weapon damage to all nearby targets.

(22 Dec / 16 Mad +3) or 2b) DOT spreading (28 Mad / 13 Dec).

Armor pierce works like it says... if you pierce 9% of 3000 armor, your skills will face an effective 2730 armor. Plug it into the formula for more detailed comparison.
While armor is not perfectly linear, and concrete values vary, assuming 30% armor reduction, which means 9% pierce gives about 3.85% extra damage, make that 4% to keep things simple, on all Kinetic / Energy (= also all Weapon) attacks. For Maul

Maul
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -50
Range: Melee (4m)
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Shadow Strike

Deals [<1>] weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.

you only get 3.1% extra damage due its higher base pierce from Duplicity.

And, back on topic, AFAIK Chain Shock calculates crits seperately, hence slightly improving the uptime of ES.
Remeber that you can also Crackling Charge in Mad, which is another notiable increase to Discharge

Discharge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -20
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 15 secs
Mirror: Force Breach

Unleashes your current lightsaber charge upon the target, applying an effect based on your current charge. Only usable with a charged lightsaber. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.Lightning Charge: Deals [<2>] periodic energy damage over 18 seconds.Dark Charge: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.Surging Charge: Deals [<1>] internal damage.

- in particular in PVP a Maul > Recklessness > Surging Charge: Discharge > Chain Shock: Shock > Assassinate combo hurts plenty as 31 Dec.

[Kaedis]

Quote:Does: 9% armor penetration for Voltaic Slash and Maul, 6% damage increase to Voltaic Slash and 9% damage increase on surging charge outmatch 9% critical strike chance for Voltaic Slash and Maul and a 45% chance to cast a second Shock dealing 50% damage.

You get to keep the 6% on VS regardless. The comparison is between 9% armor pen and 9% damage on Surging Charge versus 2% damage reduction and 22.5% damage to Shock.

Quote:If we calculate 9% armor penetration as a flat 9% damage increase, even though that can be inaccurate in both directions

Even if it's just a straight 9% armor ignore, 9% armor pen won't exceed a 7% damage increase, and that's at 75% armor mitigation. At 30% (~6500 armor), it's barely a 3% damage increase.

Quote: that means 9% more damage on Maul, Voltaic and Saber strike and is roughly equal to Exploitive strikes, even though exploitive strikes is probably more bursty.

50% base crit damage, so 9% damage increase is actually only a ~4.5% damage increase, and that's baseline. At 30% crit, it's a 3.9% increase. That's with no surge, though.

Quote:A 6% damage increase to voltaic Slash, would add 65 damage per hit, assuming then that you use a total of 20 Voltaic Slash per minute (two every 6 seconds to sync with the shock CD) for a total of 1300 damage or 21,66 dps.

A 9% increase to saber charges (Electric Execution) given surging charge's proc rate of 25% for 229 damage, given 20 voltaic slash, 10 shocks, 5 discharges and 5 other melee attacks, would mean a total of 30 attacks that can trigger surging charge, meaning that you'll get roughly 7,5 procs per minute (Hey same as Vanilla Seal of Command!) if we take into account that Voltaic Slash strikes twice, so it has 40 and add in some saber strikes because I honestly don't think the regen can handle ability use like it was outlined above, we can estimate 60 attacks that can trigger surging charge to estimate really on the high side for a total of 15 procs. This translates into 229 * 15 = 3435 damage per minute or 57,25 dps.

Where are you getting these damage numbers from? If it's TORhead, don't. Their damage numbers are extremely suspect.

Quote:Honestly, I'm not conviced that Discharge is useless for 31 Dec (solid damage, internal, only 20 F, enhanced crit mod, works with Recklessness).

Those talent points only affect Lightning Discharge. Deception will be using Surging Discharge.

[Scele]

The numbers were from Torhead and I know the math on the armor pen and the crit was off by a bit, I think I even mentioned it in the OP. The value of ES is tricky to calculate because surge comes into the picture as well as the increased critical strike damage on Maul from Induction. I figured the math would come out high, but not quite how high, thank you for the corrections.

[Kaedis]

Here's the relevant damage equations from the Nodeviewer (level 50 assumed):

Shock

Shock
Sith Inquisitor

Force: -45
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 6 secs
Damage Type: Energy
Mirror: Project

Shocks the target for [?] energy damage. Standard and weak targets are additionally stunned for 3 seconds.

- 185% Fbonus + 297.85 (Energy)
Discharge

Discharge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -20
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 15 secs
Mirror: Force Breach

Unleashes your current lightsaber charge upon the target, applying an effect based on your current charge. Only usable with a charged lightsaber. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.Lightning Charge: Deals [<2>] periodic energy damage over 18 seconds.Dark Charge: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.Surging Charge: Deals [<1>] internal damage.

(Surging) - 174% FBonus + 280.14 (Internal)
Discharge

Discharge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -20
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 15 secs
Mirror: Force Breach

Unleashes your current lightsaber charge upon the target, applying an effect based on your current charge. Only usable with a charged lightsaber. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.Lightning Charge: Deals [<2>] periodic energy damage over 18 seconds.Dark Charge: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.Surging Charge: Deals [<1>] internal damage.

(Lightning) - 261% Fbonus + 425 (Energy)
Discharge

Discharge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -20
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 15 secs
Mirror: Force Breach

Unleashes your current lightsaber charge upon the target, applying an effect based on your current charge. Only usable with a charged lightsaber. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.Lightning Charge: Deals [<2>] periodic energy damage over 18 seconds.Dark Charge: Strikes up to 5 nearby enemies, dealing [<5>] internal damage and decreasing the targets' accuracy by 5% for the next 18 seconds.Surging Charge: Deals [<1>] internal damage.

(Dark) - 74% FBonus + 119.14 (Internal)
Lacerate

Lacerate
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -40
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Whirling Blow

Deals [<1>] weapon damage to all nearby targets.

- 48% Weapon + 71% MBonus + 114.31 (Weapon)
Maul

Maul
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -50
Range: Melee (4m)
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Shadow Strike

Deals [<1>] weapon damage to a single target. Only usable from behind the target. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber.

- 158% Weapon + 237% MBonus + 379.96 (Weapon)
Thrash

Thrash
Sith Inquisitor

Force: -25
Range: Melee (4m)
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Double Strike

Strikes the target twice. Each hit deals [?] weapon damage.

- 99% Weapon + 148% MBonus + 119.14 (Weapon)
Voltaic Slash

Voltaic Slash
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -25
Range: Melee (4m)
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Weapon
Mirror: Clairvoyant Strike

Strikes the target twice, dealing [<1>] weapon damage with each hit. Each use of this ability increases the damage dealt by your next Shock by 15%. Stacks up to 2 times.

- 107% Weapon + 160% MBonus + 257.6 (Weapon)
Surging Charge

Surging Charge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -50
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Internal
Mirror: Shadow Technique

Charges your lightsaber with raw surging Force, giving your attacks a 25% chance to deal [<1>] internal damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.

- 34.4% FBonus + 54.74 (Internal)
Dark Charge

Dark Charge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -50
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Internal
Mirror: Combat Technique

Charges your lightsaber with dark energy, giving your attacks a 50% chance to drain life force from the target, dealing [<1>] internal damage and healing you for [?]. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Increases your armor rating by 150%, shield chance by 15% and threat generation by 50%. While active, melee bonus damage is reduced by 5%. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.

- 6% FBonus + 9.66 (Internal)
Lightning Charge

Lightning Charge
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Force: -50
Activation time: Instant
Damage Type: Energy
Mirror: Force Technique

Charges your lightsaber with lightning, giving your attacks a 50% chance to deal [<1>] energy damage. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Requires a double-bladed lightsaber. Does not break Stealth.

- 16.5% FBonus + 27.37 (Energy)

[lgw]

Great digging there !
Will have to see what I can make based on those numbers.

So far only Maul seems to beat Shock for instant damage, and Lightning Discharge if it runs the full duration. Surging Discharge also hits pretty hard, considering the bonuses it recieves and that it bypasses armor.
Thrash / Voltaic Slash should slightly surpass Shock unbuffed (assuming those are your numbers are for both hits together), but considering how many ways there are to buff Shock, Shock is going to hit significantly harder in most builds. And at least for PVP Shock is much more convinient due 10m range instant hitting and option to combine it with Recklessness

Recklessness
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)

Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 90 secs
Mirror: Force Potency

Grants 2 charges of Recklessness, which increases the Force critical chance of your direct attacks and heals by 60%. Each time a direct Force ability crits, you lose 1 charge. Lasts 20 seconds.

How much work would if be for you to complete the list for all Assassin damage and healing coefficients ? That would be a huge help in to put theory crafting for specs on a much more solid basis. I just have zero experience with the viewer, sorry for asking you for that work.
In that regard... I did some quick review of videos where the tab sheet was open to get a better guess for some reasonable numbers. Would for moderately good gear 450 weapon damage / 350 damage from power / 20% crit bonus from stats / 20% crit bonus damage from stats work ?

[Kaedis]

Quote:How much work would if be for you to complete the list for all Assassin damage and healing coefficients ? That would be a huge help in to put theory crafting for specs on a much more solid basis. I just have zero experience with the viewer, sorry for asking you for that work.

I actually discussed this with Alratan the other day. I'd like the equations for all of the abilities for each class either included in the OP of their Q&A thread, or in the OP of the compendium for each tree, or both. One of my biggest beefs with EJ was that a lot of times it was nearly impossible to find proper coefficient lists.

Also, since this discussion has moved beyond just Shock, I've posted my analysis of the above forumulae in the Deception thread here.

[lgw]

Just a quick word after a bunch of build analysis...
Unearthed Arcana / Twin Disciplines (21-22p Mad/Bal) looks like one of the best damage boosting talents available to SA/JS.

[mav1234]

(12-14-2011 10:20 PM)lgw Wrote:  Just a quick word after a bunch of build analysis...
Unearthed Arcana / Twin Disciplines (21-22p Mad/Bal) looks like one of the best damage boosting talents available to SA/JS.

Do you know what abilities are boosted by UA/TD? Is it only abilities that say "Melee" in the tooltip?