Powertech/Vanguard DPS Compendium

[kray]

(02-16-2012 04:02 PM)blott Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 01:30 PM)KayGBee Wrote:  The other thought to add to this is how much does Automated Defenses apply to our DPS? Since it reduces the cooldown of TSO based on crit and we crit fairly often, this means we get to use TSO more often. The question is how much often. Using TSO assists with heat management which in turn assists with DPS output.

Food for thought.

the math is actually very easy for that I would think, you can only reduce the CD of TSO once per GCD by 6s, (it says once per 1.5s but it just means the gcd basicly, making spaming rapid shots or unload useless to just cheeze the cooldown.) I got about ~38% crit myself so looking at it

TSO cooldown - 120s
GCD/AD Limit - 1.5s

crit percent - 100%
attacks - 20
crits - 20
AD total reduction - 120s
time/attacks - 30s

crit percent - 38%
attacks - 53
crits - 20
AD total reduction - 121s
time/attacks - 79.5s

little rounding here and there to be sure but thats a big improvement...

I'm gonna expand on this a little bit.

Let's say TSO is worth 25 heat (if used appropriately). You can figure out how much heat per minute you'll be getting on average with some simple math.

60sec/1.5sec = 20 chances, or windows of opportunity.

Within each of those 20 chances are flurries and DoT ticks that can crit, giving a ballpark of CritChance*1.5 probability per "window" that the talent will fire off.

Attacks*CritChance*1.5 *6sec reduction = Number of seconds TSO is reduced per minute, which at 35% crit is 63 seconds per minute, which gives an extra TSO usage every 2 minutes of combat. Valued at 25 heat, this means that (over time) you're getting 12ish free heat. That's equivalent to 3/4 of a hard hitting RP or RAIL instead of RS, quite the difference.

Figure: (3500*.75-600) damage gained per minute, TSO would give you an extra 35 DPS for a 2 talent point increase, or roughly 1% DPS increase per point spent... and those are with meager values. With higher crit chance and strong attacks, TSO will only increase in worth per point. Combine that with the added survivability of Kolto Overload and you've got an attractive talent.

[Mykal]

(02-16-2012 08:08 PM)kray Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 04:02 PM)blott Wrote:  

(02-16-2012 01:30 PM)KayGBee Wrote:  The other thought to add to this is how much does Automated Defenses apply to our DPS? Since it reduces the cooldown of TSO based on crit and we crit fairly often, this means we get to use TSO more often. The question is how much often. Using TSO assists with heat management which in turn assists with DPS output.

Food for thought.

the math is actually very easy for that I would think, you can only reduce the CD of TSO once per GCD by 6s, (it says once per 1.5s but it just means the gcd basicly, making spaming rapid shots or unload useless to just cheeze the cooldown.) I got about ~38% crit myself so looking at it

TSO cooldown - 120s
GCD/AD Limit - 1.5s

crit percent - 100%
attacks - 20
crits - 20
AD total reduction - 120s
time/attacks - 30s

crit percent - 38%
attacks - 53
crits - 20
AD total reduction - 121s
time/attacks - 79.5s

little rounding here and there to be sure but thats a big improvement...

I'm gonna expand on this a little bit.

Let's say TSO is worth 25 heat (if used appropriately). You can figure out how much heat per minute you'll be getting on average with some simple math.

60sec/1.5sec = 20 chances, or windows of opportunity.

Within each of those 20 chances are flurries and DoT ticks that can crit, giving a ballpark of CritChance*1.5 probability per "window" that the talent will fire off.

Attacks*CritChance*1.5 *6sec reduction = Number of seconds TSO is reduced per minute, which at 35% crit is 63 seconds per minute, which gives an extra TSO usage every 2 minutes of combat. Valued at 25 heat, this means that (over time) you're getting 12ish free heat. That's equivalent to 3/4 of a hard hitting RP or RAIL instead of RS, quite the difference.

Figure: (3500*.75-600) damage gained per minute, TSO would give you an extra 35 DPS for a 2 talent point increase, or roughly 1% DPS increase per point spent... and those are with meager values. With higher crit chance and strong attacks, TSO will only increase in worth per point. Combine that with the added survivability of Kolto Overload and you've got an attractive talent.

I'm finding great success with a very similar build. I will say though that ammo is a pain in the butt and if I'm really not careful I find myself running out quickly. Makes me wonder at times if going tactics, though lower in dps/damage, would actually be better since there's really a bigger allowance for error, which means more sustained dps.

[thrakkemarn]

(02-16-2012 04:09 PM)Duketogo13 Wrote:  Also just from a very basic math sense.. doing greater damage 70% of the fight is going to be better, unless the amount gained at 30% totals up to more than what you'd gain during that 70%. Enrage timer or not its just a simple matter of over all what gives you more numbers at the end game. If you're doing lets say 1.5x extra dmg at that 70% and giving up lets say 2x dmg at 30% you're still ahead you know? Someone who is more into the spreadsheets can likely work out some actual numbers for this perhaps.

This is true, but is probably balanced by the fact that the harder bosses currently have stages where they become harder (or have a short dps window) at low percentages of health. For Soa Stage 3 is all below 30%. For Annihilation droid he goes into missile spam at low HP. Doing more damage overall vs more below 30% is pretty much a toss-up in my book.

(02-16-2012 08:08 PM)kray Wrote:  Attacks*CritChance*1.5 *6sec reduction = Number of seconds TSO is reduced per minute, which at 35% crit is 63 seconds per minute, which gives an extra TSO usage every 2 minutes of combat. Valued at 25 heat, this means that (over time) you're getting 12ish free heat. That's equivalent to 3/4 of a hard hitting RP or RAIL instead of RS, quite the difference.

The only issue with that is it assumes you have an instant-use 25-heat ability ready to fire off every time your TSO cools down. For a pyro build this is pretty much JUST Incendiary Missile, and its DoT is frequently not expiring exactly when TSO is ready. Firing it off early or late is a DPS loss.

If instead you use TSO for a FT or DFA (both channeled) you will probably cool down below 0 heat. If you instead use TSO for a 16-heat instant ability, you are throwing away 9 heat. IMO fitting AD+TSO into a rotation just makes heat management more complicated - you have to maintain a very high heat amount to make it work. Unless the procs and crits all line up perfectly, you are probably NOT getting the maximum benefit from it.

Now, the value of more Kolto Overloads makes it more valuable, but I still think taking more Steely Resolve AND Prototype Cylinders is far more useful than Automated Defenses.

[blott]

(02-17-2012 03:42 AM)thrakkemarn Wrote:  For Soa Stage 3 is all below 30%. For Annihilation droid he goes into missile spam at low HP. Doing more damage overall vs more below 30% is pretty much a toss-up in my book.

These two examples are hardly important, the annihlation droid burn starts at 9% and the soa final burns are 20s intervals anyways where you are only going to get a few dot ticks in if you preload him with IM/CGC, even then it is a very small dps gain vs. as much as ~150aim over the whole fight, which is like having a whole nother stim pack on.

(02-17-2012 03:42 AM)thrakkemarn Wrote:  Now, the value of more Kolto Overloads makes it more valuable, but I still think taking more Steely Resolve AND Prototype Cylinders is far more useful than Automated Defenses.

Kolto heals for so little it is VERY silly imo to think the talent helps much, if it reduced Shield cd then lets talk .

But yes I totally agree with you in the end, Stats are way better atm vs these talents and I don't see them getting any better any time soon unless they change them.

[Rooks]

(02-17-2012 08:34 AM)blott Wrote:  

(02-17-2012 03:42 AM)thrakkemarn Wrote:  For Soa Stage 3 is all below 30%. For Annihilation droid he goes into missile spam at low HP. Doing more damage overall vs more below 30% is pretty much a toss-up in my book.

These two examples are hardly important, the annihlation droid burn starts at 9% and the soa final burns are 20s intervals anyways where you are only going to get a few dot ticks in if you preload him with IM/CGC, even then it is a very small dps gain vs. as much as ~150aim over the whole fight, which is like having a whole nother stim pack on.

To be fair on Soa, phase one and two can be as slow or as fast as you want them to be (within reason). I'll take even the smallest bonus damage on those burn phases though.

A better example would be Jarg & Sorno, if your raid utilizes the strat to kill Jarg, then Sorno when they hit 30% (to avoid the raid being whittled away by Rail Shots). Another is nightmare Karagga, as you start to run out of room and things are getting dicey.

There are just intangibles to the homestretch of a fight that this bonus damage can help alleviate. 3/3 Burnout is a lock for me.

[blott]

(02-17-2012 04:06 PM)Rooks Wrote:  There are just intangibles to the homestretch of a fight that this bonus damage can help alleviate. 3/3 Burnout is a lock for me.

I totally agree, I was more talking about the usefulness of AD and TD vs SR. I totally agree that the 1% crit & 10% dot dmg sub 30% are probably better then 3% aim in real fights.

[Mykal]

I have a question regarding HIB for these assault builds. Are we to be only using HIB upon proc or use it every time it's up?

[Cosmic Osmo]

Use it on cooldown. It's a very high damage ability, only costs 1 ammo on a burning target, and if you don't put it on cooldown before fishing for a proc, you're wasting the reset-cooldown portion of the proc.

[Mykal]

This is the spec I'm currently running:
http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMZfI0bkGhM.1

I've been following this guy's post and it's pretty interesting, though I'm not sure how valid his math is:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=161399

[blott]

There is no way Hot Iron is better then Burnout in any way. Most of this has been discussed in the last 2-5 pages a lot if you are wondering.