Damage Reduction

[Masterkiller]

Damage Reduction formula obtained:



http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Dam...46#pid2246

Data gained from Youtube and other video posted by the public.

So I've been working some time now to look at how armor effects damage reduction. It had been reported at each point in armor provides .048% damage reduction but I haven't seen this be the case at higher levels.



This is a level 3 that I found on youtube that equipped a chest and belt that gained a net of 31 armor points but the damage reduction went from 4.3 to 5.1%. (5.1-4.3)/31=0.025% per point of armor. However, if you try to apply .025% times 47 armor rating you come up with 1.175%.

We know Shii-Cho form is available towards the very beginning and reduces incoming damage by 3%, and we would assume this would be applied to the paper doll stats. So adding 1.175% + 3% would give us ~4.1% of damage reduction. We are still missing 1%.

If we take 5.1% from the paper doll, and subtract Shii-Cho, leaving 2.1% unaccounted damage reduction maybe we can re-calculate the armor per point. That leaves us with 0.044 which is pretty close to what was previously reported as the damage reduction % per point of armor. However, that doesn't explain how 31 points of armor is providing 0.8% of damage reduction when the player swaps gear. If we use 0.48% we get 1.488% damage reduction which would take the player from 4.3% to 5.78% which we don't see happening.

 

Now to make things really interesting…



I got this also off a youtube video and here the Jedi Knight has 2635 armor and 27.20% damage reduction. I don't know what buffs he had on for damage reduction, but it's at least 3%. I want to say I saw the tanking "aura" was 6% reduction and increased threat by 100% (if anyone has link to remind me, it'd be appreciated). With 21.2% reduction that would put each point of armor worth 0.0008% of damage reduction. It's not even CLOSE to what we are seeing at low levels so the character level must have an impact on the value of armor and damage reduction.

Something else interesting on this screen is Shield Chance and Shield Absorption.

Any thoughts on the armor to damage reduction?

[BloodHawk]

I agree, there is quite a disparity in those armor-to-reduction percentages.

You may be right that the ratio of armor value to damage reduction drastically decreases as we level. If so, we'll have to trust that BioWare has scaled the game around this already so we won't feel badly about the losses in the ratio as we level.

I'm wondering though, maybe the full armor value is not being used to show the percent of damage reduction. Maybe the damage reduction percentages are coming from specific equipment stats on his various armor pieces. This is just a random thought, not based on anything other than me trying to wrap my brain around the disparity.

[Masterkiller]

I got a hold of some more stuff.

 

Prior to gear change:
Level 7
231 armor rating
12.5% damage reduction

After gear change:
Level 7
245 armor rating
13.19% damage reduction

So (13.19 – 12.5) / (245 – 231)
0.69 / 14 = .049 per point of armor at level 7

I'm still under the impression that the amount of damage reduction you earn per point of armor is effected by your level or the Jedi Knight's armor didn't all apply to the total damage reduction, much like "bonus armor" in WoW.

[Anubis Black]

Using only the data points (Armor: 47, Damage reduction: 5.1%) and (Armor: 2635, Damage reduction: 27.2%) we get the formula

0.00854% * x + 4.7%

This assumes the only thing that affects the damage reduction is the armor. But as we see in the change from 4.3% to 5.1% there is some other underlying effect. It is a long shot, but maybe Endurance increases your damage reduction as well. At least one would assume so based on the meaning of the word. Also, if Force Vitality also contributes towards this number, then we need that data as well. Maybe there is a base damage reduction. Does it increase on a level up without any change to gear? Maybe armor to damage reduction has diminishing returns (not very likely). Maybe a buff is increasing stats by a percentage or by a fixed value (see Mark of Power on Sith Inquisitor).

It might be a good idea to do a similar dissection on the footage to the one in the spreadsheet I sent you- it takes a few hours though- stopping the video every minute or so when the character panel is open or when he hovers over an item/ability.

After reading your last entry I am more inclined to believe that Armor rating provides around 0.04%- 0.05% damage reduction per point. Can you confirm there are no other significant changes in other stats (e.g. Endurance)? Maybe I am trying to fit the answer to the problem rather than find an answer to the problem, but let us assume a 0.045% dr per 1 AR and take a look at your first example again. If we take into account the 3% Force Vitality and we check the second data point (AR: 47, DR: 5.1%) or in fact (AR: 47, DR: 2.1%) as you point out the 0.045% hypothesis fits. We obviously see that the point (AR: 16, DR: 1.3%) doesn't fit and neither does (AR: 31, DR: 0.8%). So what if the chest and/or belt have some other stats that increase damage reduction prior to the swap and the newly equipped items do not have these and DR is only affected by AR with the new gear? The same can be said about your last example- the change in DR value fits our assumption (AR: 14, DR: 0.69%) maybe with another stat in play, but the start and end points do not [ (231, 12.5%), (245, 13.19%) ]. If we only have a look at the coefficients (assuming only AR is affecting DR) in these three last points- the starting value would be 12.5% / 231 = 0.0541%, the change as you calculated is 0.049% and the end value is 13.19% / 245 = 0.0538%. This makes me believe there is another stat that influences DR and the piece of gear either does not have it at all, which I am more inclined to believe as it drops the coefficient by roughly 0.5% = (0.0541% – 0.0538%) / 0.0541%, or (less likely) has it in a relatively low amount.

To find the true relationship between Armor rating and Damage reduction you need to change Armor rating holding everything else constant. If such anecdotal data is not available, then maybe a lot more data about Damage reduction change with all the other stat changes so that we can find the underlying effects.

[Tsuneo]

To be honest I have to disagree with you on your comment about diminishing returns with AR.  I really do believe that we will see deminishing returns with armor when we start discussing high level characters.  Also with better gear comes better AR but at the same time you can have damage reductions on a linear progression.  There has to be some point where it plateaus otherwise damage will be reduced so low that you could practically solo any boss/player with no healing necessary. 

 

This is an awesome thread.  I look forward to seeing more people post on this.

 

EDIT:  after thinking about what I said here there is a possiblity of an armor cap at certain levels which would remove any reasoning for diminishing returns.  You would just simply hit the armor cap and gain no more benefit

[musco]

I unfortunately don't have time to go through the math of it, but there is always the possibility that here is a base armor amount which is effecting this.

For example, we assume from the paperdoll that if we see 100 armor = 10%DR that 10 armor = 1% DR. However, this math is wrong if there is a base DR value that we can't see. If there is a 1% flat DR then in theory 100 armor actually only = 9% DR or 11.11 armor = 1%DR. The math changes entirely.

The issue is that without playing the game to remove all of the armor each level we cant know if there is a base value, or if it is changes as you level.

[Tsuneo]

I think this goes along pretty well with what I said about diminishing returns.  We don't know what variables they will input into armor.  We have to play the game in more detail in order to figure out how armor is going to work in this game. 

 

Thought:  This thought of mine may seem confusing and a complete long shot but I figure I should state it anyways.  What if we could find the answer by studying the mindset of the developer's themselves.  I know that Damien Schubert has his own website called http://www.zenofdesign.com where he shares his thoughts and views of MMORPGs in general.  Perhaps if we can pull out patterns of thought from that website we may be able to deduce how some of these stats might work in game.  I know this might seem confusing and a complete long shot but people work in patterns (hell, most people don't even know or, even worse, deny that they work in patterns) and if we can find the right patterns then we can predict what their plans are.

[SirGlacius]

I would not be the least bit surprised if AR and dmg reduction are not directly proportional. I suspect that they plan to add more levels over time and the difference between the AR of heavy armour users and light armour users would grow bigger and bigger ultimately resulting in a situation where if a boss wants to do dmg on the tank it would 1shot any other class. This would also create a ceiling afther which tanks can’t get better armour any more. That is why I suspect that dmg reduction will not be directly proportional to AR.

[Tsuneo]

SirGlacius said:

I would not be the least bit surprised if AR and dmg reduction are not directly proportional. I suspect that they plan to add more levels over time and the difference between the AR of heavy armour users and light armour users would grow bigger and bigger ultimately resulting in a situation where if a boss wants to do dmg on the tank it would 1shot any other class. This would also create a ceiling afther which tanks can’t get better armour any more. That is why I suspect that dmg reduction will not be directly proportional to AR.

I also have to agree with this statement 100%. 

[Anubis Black]

Tsuneo said:

To be honest I have to disagree with you on your comment about diminishing returns with AR.  I really do believe that we will see deminishing returns with armor when we start discussing high level characters.  Also with better gear comes better AR but at the same time you can have damage reductions on a linear progression.  There has to be some point where it plateaus otherwise damage will be reduced so low that you could practically solo any boss/player with no healing necessary. 

 

This is an awesome thread.  I look forward to seeing more people post on this.

 

EDIT:  after thinking about what I said here there is a possiblity of an armor cap at certain levels which would remove any reasoning for diminishing returns.  You would just simply hit the armor cap and gain no more benefit

I did not say diminishing returns is not a possibility, I said it's not as likely as a model in which other stats influence DR, e.g. Force Vitality, Endurance, etc. So of cource, diminishing returns are on the table.

 

musco said:

I unfortunately don't have time to go through the math of it, but there is always the possibility that here is a base armor amount which is effecting this.

For example, we assume from the paperdoll that if we see 100 armor = 10%DR that 10 armor = 1% DR. However, this math is wrong if there is a base DR value that we can't see. If there is a 1% flat DR then in theory 100 armor actually only = 9% DR or 11.11 armor = 1%DR. The math changes entirely.

The issue is that without playing the game to remove all of the armor each level we cant know if there is a base value, or if it is changes as you level.

Well, the math is all that is worth analysing really. Anyone can say "I think this affects that" but without backing up your claims, it's not really constructive. We can find out the relationship, we just need more data. You can see what I did with bits and pieces on the SI. If you can find me info on DR I can do the same.