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**Masterkiller** · 12-07-2011, 06:35 AM

Hey a great tool you'll want to be mindful of is:
http://sithwarrior.com/opcomp/ to make sure you are getting all of your buffs/debuffs.

Doobyman · (This post was last modified: 12-08-2011 04:40 AM by Doobyman.)

On the release build 8 and 16 were no longer separate lockouts.

Primalthirst · 12-08-2011, 08:01 PM

Personally I'm actually okay with that if it's the case.
Whilst I love raiding and want to do as much as I can, I don't know if I'll have the time for both sizes. I'll probably end up doing one size seriously with my guild and pugging the other on Sunday mornings or something like that when I have the time.

**Petrus** · 12-08-2011, 11:30 PM

(12-08-2011 08:01 PM)Primalthirst Wrote: Personally I'm actually okay with that if it's the case.
Whilst I love raiding and want to do as much as I can, I don't know if I'll have the time for both sizes. I'll probably end up doing one size seriously with my guild and pugging the other on Sunday mornings or something like that when I have the time.

See, I think putting 8 and 16 on the same lockout is always a bad idea. It effectively kills the majority of 16 man raids, since 8/16 have the same loot. Why do 16 when 8 is easier?

Devs also waste a lot of time tuning 16m for the few people who do give them a shot.

IMO putting 10/25 on the same loot/lockout was just about the biggest mistake WoW ever made, and I don't think it's any better here.

Doobyman · 12-09-2011, 03:19 AM

Except 10man was actually more difficult than 25man in tier 11. Until the big nerfs ofc. 10s were pretty much impossible, even the best guilds in the world couldn't clear on 10.

**Kaedis** · 12-09-2011, 03:24 AM

Dooby, that was partly because of crappy encounter scaling that Blizz did. For example, Valiona was next to impossible because the adds that spawned had the same amount of health as in 25-man, so they took far too long to kill in the shadow realm with 2/5th the number of people.

**Petrus** · (This post was last modified: 12-09-2011 03:30 AM by Petrus.)

Won't get into the 10/25m wow difficulty argument, because if they weren't balanced right, that was blizzards fault.

That said, everything being balanced correctly, 8mans will be easier than 16 for two main reasons.

1. It's easier to find 8 good players than 16.
2. The fights are in a space designed for 16 people, so any type of positioning/movement fight with AoE is always going to favor the smaller group.

And sure, with less people you have less backup if someone dies, there is certainly an arguement there, but look at the number of 25m guilds pre cata, and post cata, and you'll find that the vast majority of players are doing content in 10ms.

Whether that's because the ease of the encounter, or the ease of finding a group, or some other undiscussed factor doesn't really matter, imo. The numbers show that with 8/16s having the same loot and same lockout, it'll be the rare group that tries things on 16. (Not to say it won't happen of course.) I just think that's a shame, because 8m really feels more like a flashpoint than a raid to me.

Doobyman · 12-09-2011, 04:26 AM

(12-09-2011 03:24 AM)Kor Wrote: Dooby, that was partly because of crappy encounter scaling that Blizz did. For example, Valiona was next to impossible because the adds that spawned had the same amount of health as in 25-man, so they took far too long to kill in the shadow realm with 2/5th the number of people.

That's not the entire problem though, although I do agree with you. Halfus heroic for example was horrendus in 10man pre-disc nerf because you simply could not stack enough cooldowns. Even more so with Maloriak, disregarding the early health issue on the black spawns a 25man raid easily had enough cooldowns for the tank to survive the flame breaths, whereas not so in a 10man.

However, swtor is far from playing the cooldown game that WoW did, so hopefully never shall we run into this problem. Therefore I agree with you Smile

Primalthirst · (This post was last modified: 12-09-2011 03:52 PM by Primalthirst.)

Don't get me wrong, I think 10 and 25 man versions of the same instance was the worst change ever made. I love big raids and if I'm doing a smaller version of the same one it just feels like a joke. But I don't want to be doing the same bosses twice each week as mandatory progression. I'd rather go hard in one and then if I can be bothered relax in a pug normal mode in the other size.

**Rystet** · (This post was last modified: 12-09-2011 05:58 PM by Rystet.)

(12-08-2011 11:30 PM)Petrus Wrote: See, I think putting 8 and 16 on the same lockout is always a bad idea. It effectively kills the majority of 16 man raids, since 8/16 have the same loot. Why do 16 when 8 is easier?

Way back at Pax Prime, when they first started dishing out raid info, We were told that 8 and 16 mans would share a lockout. It was in an interview with Gabe. In that same interview he stated that 16 man loot would drop slightly more than twice the loot of an 8 man.

So, if that holds true. Guilds will actually be gearing up faster in 16 mans. Twice the people, but more than twice the loot dropping. So that is one benefit.

Ill try to find a link to the interview.

Edit: I am having trouble finding the Q & A, I remember him talking about it in a couple of video interviews also. I did at least find this article that covered the story. http://corellianrun.com/2011/08/26/time-...operation/