SWTOR formula list

[SLi]

(05-17-2012 12:06 AM)frmorrison Wrote:  While most classes have a talent that increases the primary stat, that doesn't mean people always choose that talent (for example, Pyro Powertechs). However, everyone can get the 5% stat increase from SI.

I know for Rage Juggernauts Power is better than Strength Augments due to having many Crit talents already, so having more power is better than more crit.

Yeah, my apologies.

I'll reword it.

[Kaedis]

Quote:I know for Rage Juggernauts Power is better than Strength Augments due to having many Crit talents already, so having more power is better than more crit.

I'm curious about this, as the difference with the Strength-boost skill is 3.6% more Damage Bonus from Power than Strength, at a loss of crit. Even with a large number of crit-boosting skills, crit is still a very solid dps increase, particularly since this crit is on a separate and far less punishing DR curve. Do you have a link to the math or a source for this?

[frmorrison]

(05-17-2012 12:40 PM)Kaedis Wrote:  

Quote:I know for Rage Juggernauts Power is better than Strength Augments due to having many Crit talents already, so having more power is better than more crit.

I'm curious about this, as the difference with the Strength-boost skill is 3.6% more Damage Bonus from Power than Strength, at a loss of crit. Even with a large number of crit-boosting skills, crit is still a very solid dps increase, particularly since this crit is on a separate and far less punishing DR curve. Do you have a link to the math or a source for this?

Primary stat gives an effective 0.212 damage per point (it also gives crit chance, which should not be ignored for many classes - but it is the lowest priority of the secondary stats Juggs care about - the 0.012 damage comes from 6% bonus strength talent)
Power gives 0.23 damage per point

Here it is with all the Buffs:
Strength = 0.2 base damage per point (DPP) * 1.06 (talent) = 0.212 DPP * 1.05 (Consular/Inquistor buff) = 0.2226 DPP * 1.05 (Knight/Warrior buff) = 0.23373 DPP

Power = 0.23 base DPP * 1.05 (Knight/Warrior buff) = 0.2415 DPP

Strength = 0.23373 DPP + 0.009 Critical Chance
Power = 0.2415 DPP

0.23373 DPP + 0.009 Crit modifier from Str < 0.2415 DPP
Strength < Power for a Rage Jugg

For non-Rage Juggs (classes that don't have a free crit every 15seconds and/or spammable DoTs), the crit modifier beats the extra DPP. Granted, the difference is small either way.

[Kaedis]

Quote:Primary stat gives an effective 0.212 damage per point (it also gives crit chance, which should not be ignored for many classes - but it is the lowest priority of the secondary stats Juggs care about - the 0.012 damage comes from 6% bonus strength talent)
Power gives 0.23 damage per point

Here it is with all the Buffs:
Strength = 0.2 base damage per point (DPP) * 1.06 (talent) = 0.212 DPP * 1.05 (Consular/Inquistor buff) = 0.2226 DPP * 1.05 (Knight/Warrior buff) = 0.23373 DPP

Power = 0.23 base DPP * 1.05 (Knight/Warrior buff) = 0.2415 DPP

Ok, first off, Mark of Power stacks additively with Dreadnaught, not multiplicatively. This actually reduces the net benefit to 0.222 from 0.2226, reducing the final DPP to 0.2331. That said, your posit here:

Quote:Strength = 0.23373 DPP + 0.009 Critical Chance
Power = 0.2415 DPP

0.23373 DPP + 0.009 Crit modifier from Str < 0.2415 DPP
Strength < Power for a Rage Jugg

Is false. Just because crit rating is a low priority stat does not mean the crit bonus from Strength is worth that little. That crit bonus is on a separate and far more flatter DR curve than crit rating, so while crit rating may be low priority due to the DR on it, the crit bonus from Strength can still be quite potent. Note that you're only gaining 3.60% more Bonus Damage from Power as you do from Strength, it's really not that much of a difference.

Now, if you were avoiding Dreadnaught, I could see your posit being valid, but with the additional bonus from skills, Strength almost certainly follows the exact same weight pattern as Willpower does for Sorcs (even our most crit-adverse spec, which gets a free crit every 9 seconds, weights Willpower ~10% higher than Power). I'd have to spend a while doing the math to actually prove this for Juggernauts, but I see no reason at all why they should be any different than Sorcs in that regard, given that they gain the same bonuses from skills, and they both have specs that are crit-adverse due to automatic crit abilities.

[TankAviator]

Quick question that may have been answered somewhere in the bowels of the previous fifty-something posts, but I wanted to check to make sure my equation I came up with is correct. I have been trying to determine my effective damage for each of my attacks, and have come up with 1 of 2 generalized equations:

(base_damage + bonus_damage) * (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult)

-or-

base_damage * (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult) + bonus_damage

Obviously the first equation would be the best for us, but it may be a bit overeager.

Also does anyone know if where the 2x multiplier goes for a Rage Jugg's Shockwave talent? It doubles the damage of Smash basically, but I don't know if that is applied to base damage, base and bonus damage, or the final damage number also doubling the crit increase.

Right now my calculated numbers are all within about 10% of my parsed actual numbers, except for Smash, which is showing around 38% less damage than calculated. I would like to figure out where this huge discrepancy is.

Thanks

[Kaedis]

Quote:(base_damage + bonus_damage) * (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult)

-or-

base_damage * (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult) + bonus_damage

Obviously the first equation would be the best for us, but it may be a bit overeager.

Also does anyone know if where the 2x multiplier goes for a Rage Jugg's Shockwave talent? It doubles the damage of Smash basically, but I don't know if that is applied to base damage, base and bonus damage, or the final damage number also doubling the crit increase.

Right now my calculated numbers are all within about 10% of my parsed actual numbers, except for Smash, which is showing around 38% less damage than calculated. I would like to figure out where this huge discrepancy is.

The former equation. The latter would require either that the base damage and the bonus damage were dealt separately (and the bonus damage couldn't crit), or the crit multiplier only applied to the base damage. Given that for most abilities and classes, base damage is around 15-25% of the total damage of the ability, if crit only applied to it, crit and surge would be the absolute worst stats on the planet.

As for smash, all damage multipliers apply to the total damage of the ability. As far as I know, we've yet to discover any effect that only applies to the base damage. Crit and that bonus would stack multiplicatively (ie. damage done by crits would also be doubled). Keep in mind that that (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult) is a statistical trick to determine the average contribution from crit. The damage is not actually multiplied by that value in-game, that value just gives what the average damage of the ability will be over many iterations of use. If you want the average damage of a non-crit attack, skip that multiplier. If you want the average damage of a crit attack, instead multiply by (1 + crit_mult). Note again that these are still averages, since all non-DoT abilities have variable ranges on their damage (either due to variable base damage or due to a weapon coefficient).

Do note, however, that all effects that directly affect the damage of any ability (like the smash bonus, but NOT the crit bonus) are additive. For example, if you have both Decimate and 4 stacks of Shockwave, it will be dealing 230% of normal damage, not 2 * 1.3 = 260% of normal. Your Smash is also a Force effect, so it should be getting 30% additional crit_mult from Dark Resonance.

[TankAviator]

(05-28-2012 02:48 AM)Kaedis Wrote:  

Quote:(base_damage + bonus_damage) * (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult)

-or-

base_damage * (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult) + bonus_damage

Obviously the first equation would be the best for us, but it may be a bit overeager.

Also does anyone know if where the 2x multiplier goes for a Rage Jugg's Shockwave talent? It doubles the damage of Smash basically, but I don't know if that is applied to base damage, base and bonus damage, or the final damage number also doubling the crit increase.

Right now my calculated numbers are all within about 10% of my parsed actual numbers, except for Smash, which is showing around 38% less damage than calculated. I would like to figure out where this huge discrepancy is.

The former equation. The latter would require either that the base damage and the bonus damage were dealt separately (and the bonus damage couldn't crit), or the crit multiplier only applied to the base damage. Given that for most abilities and classes, base damage is around 15-25% of the total damage of the ability, if crit only applied to it, crit and surge would be the absolute worst stats on the planet.

As for smash, all damage multipliers apply to the total damage of the ability. As far as I know, we've yet to discover any effect that only applies to the base damage. Crit and that bonus would stack multiplicatively (ie. damage done by crits would also be doubled). Keep in mind that that (1 + crit_chance * crit_mult) is a statistical trick to determine the average contribution from crit. The damage is not actually multiplied by that value in-game, that value just gives what the average damage of the ability will be over many iterations of use. If you want the average damage of a non-crit attack, skip that multiplier. If you want the average damage of a crit attack, instead multiply by (1 + crit_mult). Note again that these are still averages, since all non-DoT abilities have variable ranges on their damage (either due to variable base damage or due to a weapon coefficient).

Do note, however, that all effects that directly affect the damage of any ability (like the smash bonus, but NOT the crit bonus) are additive. For example, if you have both Decimate and 4 stacks of Shockwave, it will be dealing 230% of normal damage, not 2 * 1.3 = 260% of normal. Your Smash is also a Force effect, so it should be getting 30% additional crit_mult from Dark Resonance.

I use the chance*multiplier equation because my ultimate goal is to find the most efficient setup. I even calculate in defense (et. al.) when determining efficiency, as I figure if you can last 10% longer you will do 10% more damage in general. Granted this doesn't apply in every situation, but when trying to build for general purpose it applies often enough to fit my needs. I find the ability to adapt to situations to be in demand, and I carry tanking and dps gear on my Jugg at all times, my party loves my usefulness. Its expensive and time consuming, but in an Op sometimes you need more tank, less DPS at points, and vice versa at others. And yes I know Veng is more adaptable than Rage, and safer when stunning enemies, but I love my Smashes (I am thinking of making 3 sets of gear, tank-based, power-based, and crit-based, talk about expensive).

I just did some playing around with my equation, and found that the following equation gives much more accurate damage numbers for Smash:

(base + bonus) * (2 + crit_chance * crit_mul)

This is instead of using:

2 * ((base + bonus) * (1 + crit_chance * crit_mul))

and the difference is not negligible. With the first equation I calculate 4838 damage, with the second I calculated 6486. My logs parser indicates that my average over time is about 4.1K for Smash, making the first version I just posted only 9% off, whereas the second equation is about 39% off (I am re-gearing from Veng spec, so have a crit/power ratio inversion right now).

I kind of figured that crit applied to bonus damage, but wanted to make sure as my numbers were so off given that second equation. It looks like the Shockwave damage bump applies before the multiplier, not after. That does make sense as this spec would have an unfair advantage effectively doubling the crit multiplier and thus making this one ability have a different surge DR curve (basically pushing out the tip over point), and we would be back to the surge problems of 1.0.

[Kaedis]

The best way to make sure your equations are working correctly is to find the average damage done by the non-crits and compare it to:

(base + bonus) * 2

Then find the average damage done by crits and compare it to both:

(base + bonus) * (2 + crit_mult)

and:

(base + bonus) * 2 * (1 + crit_mult)

The latter one of those should be the case. If it is, you're either not always getting all 4 stacks before you use Smash, your parser is incorrectly displaying the data, or something else is going wrong.

However, I would question your calculations. Given the above equations and the above stated damage totals from them (4838 and 6486 respectively), this would require a crit_chance * crit_mult of 1.03 (base damage 1595), which is patently impossible in current gear.

Quote:It looks like the Shockwave damage bump applies before the multiplier, not after. That does make sense as this spec would have an unfair advantage effectively doubling the crit multiplier and thus making this one ability have a different surge DR curve (basically pushing out the tip over point), and we would be back to the surge problems of 1.0.

This, while not impossible, is very very unlikely. It wouldn't give any sort of advantage on the crit multiplier, and is the reason that 7k Smash crits aren't out of reach. I strongly suspect you're seeing some other issue here. It's possible that the Shockwave multiplier is stacking additively with the critical multiplier (which wouldn't be effectively being doubled by the bonus, the damage it was applying to would be the thing being doubled), but we'd need a LOT more evidence than simply your equations not lining up.

If you'd like to get into more detail, please PM me all of the following:

• A copy-paste of a line from your combat log showing a non-crit Smash damage.
• A copy-paste of a line from your combat log showing a crit Smash damage.
• Your crit chance, crit multiplier, and bonus damage as it occurs in combat, as well as a link to your exact spec.
• Double check if you have any proc effects (or are using any use effects) that would alter your crit chance, crit multiplier, or bonus damage any time during combat.

We'll continue this in PMs, since this isn't really the thread for specific Warrior calculations.

[lawphill]

Sorry if this is addressed at some point earlier in this thread. I'm setting up a simulator in MATLAB and am having some trouble with a number of the formulas at the beginning of the post. Bonus damage and cast modifiers seem to come out consistent with my in-game readout, but I've noticed that accuracy%, offhand acc%, crit % and surge % all show up in the game as 1 point higher than my simulator has them. Is this a known issue?

Just as an example here's my calculation for accuracy with no buffs but a 2% bonus from the skill tree:
aim = 1905
accuracy = 228

% special accuracy = 100 + 2 + 30*(1-(1-(.01/.3))^((228/50)/.55)) = 109.35%

What I see in-game though is 110.35% which seems to close to be a problem with the formula itself. It's the same for all the %based calculations (acc, offhand acc, crit chance, surge magnitude). Not sure what's up with that extra 1%

[Freehugs]

(06-22-2012 06:16 AM)lawphill Wrote:  % special accuracy = 100 + 2 + 30*(1-(1-(.01/.3))^((228/50)/.55)) = 109.35%

What I see in-game though is 110.35% which seems to close to be a problem with the formula itself. It's the same for all the %based calculations (acc, offhand acc, crit chance, surge magnitude). Not sure what's up with that extra 1%

The 1% bonus is a legacy companion buff. You maxed the affection on a melee tank companion like Khem Val and it gave you 1% accuracy on all your characters:

Healer companion gives 1% Healing Received
Melee DPS companion gives 1% Surge
Ranged DPS companion gives 1% Crit Chance
Melee Tank companion gives 1% Accuracy
Ranged Tank companion gives 1% Max Health