Shield Tech/Shield Specialist Tanking Discussion

[Toro]

Do we know how buff and talents stack yet?

For example, the buff Fortification increases endurance by 5%, and the talent Soldier's Endurance increases endurance by 3%. Does this result in a net bonus of 8% (additive) or 8.15% (multiplicative).

I'm trying to wrap up the tanking portion of my Trooper/BH XLS. Once I get the basic math implemented, I want to take it public to get help with cooldowns/procs/rotations/threat. Really, the last two should be easy - I just need updated ability tables.

EDIT: Just noticed this is my first post here - I guess I've been lurking for a while and contributing nothing.

[Poombibio]

(12-01-2011 10:31 AM)Mesrith Wrote:  Single Target Priority
Rocket Punch > Rail Shot > Explosive Dart > Flame Burst > Rapid Shots

I would try to use Flame Burst as my filler ability until I neared the first heat regeneration line, and then I would mix in Rapid Shots as needed to not cross the heat threshold.

Where would you put Flame Burst/Flame Sweep in the opening sequence so that the Combust debuff is applied asap yet applying high initial threat?

Im thinking essentially:
Single target.
1. Opener(Unload)
2. []Jet Charge/Grapple(early)
3. [1.5]Rocket Punch(+Ion Cylinder damage)
4. [3]Flame Burst(Combust)
5. []Heat Blast

AoE.
1. Opener(DFA)
2. []Explosive Dart
3. [1.5s]Jet Charge
4. [3s]Flame Sweep
5. []Rocket Punch
6. [6s]Flame Thrower

After that, u essentially have Combust applied 100%.

What do you think about when to apply?

[Mesrith]

I don't think we need to boil it down to the perfect opening sequence based on getting the Combust debuff up, I think we just need to play with people intelligent enough to let us have 5-6 seconds before blowing cooldowns and going crazy on DPS. It probably won't cripple our threat too much to open with Flame Burst/Flame Sweep as our first close-range ability if needed, and we probably won't be one-shot by a boss for waiting a few more GCD's to get Combust up if we want to just use our normal threat priority. You can probably do whichever you like.

I wish we had as much enthusiasm for this thread as there is for the Warrior/Assassin threads. Since I was only in two weekend betas and played to level 26 I hate to be a leading voice in driving this discussion.

[Dread]

I only played to 18 since I was like on ADD pills or something and had to play just about all the classes during my 2 beta weeknds. That said I did tank BT (not like you need one) and attempted Hammer with a bad group people just started attacking anything they saw, I don't think the healer had any heal buttons assigned lol, but when it did settle down a little I was able to hold and keep aggro most of the time.
The abilities that I used mainly were:

Single target

1. Neural dart
2. Unload
3. Rocket Punch
4. Flame Burst
5. Rail Shot
6. Rapid Shots

AOE
1. DFA
2. Explosive Dart
3. Flame sweep
4. Rapid Shots (if Heat was an issue)

I found Neural Dart to be a very nice opener which gave me time to build up aggro with my other skills. If I could get the above rotations going I usually did not lose threat, but that could be a big if at times with a bad group.

[Poombibio]

Two things I have noticed from my opening sequence sims:

Unload is not ideal for opening due to possible lost heat regen of Shield Vents proc.
16Heat - (5HpS*3seconds) = 1 Heat after regular heat regen. Thus if Shield Vents procs, 7 heats are wasted)

Death from Above doesn't have this issue:
25Heat - (4HpS*1.25s+5Hps*1.75s) = 11.25. If Shield Vents Procs(probable over 3 seconds) then it drops down to 3.25.

However, this leads into the 2nd issue. It would be tempting to use Jet Charge or Grapple following this opening DFA, but from a heat perspective, it is not ideal, as they have no heat cost and thus heat regen will sit at 0 if Shield Vents had proc'd prior, even if it is for just .85 seconds. If using Unload to open, its significantly worse, having lost the SV proc AND normal regen as well.

I know this is nibbling at the edges and I hope as a tank, we won't have to worry about resource that much, but given that as BH/Troopers, we are RESOURCE limited, any advantage we can gain, I'll take it.

I especially like that knowing this, im going to try my opening pull on singles as:
DFA>Explosive Dart>Jet Charge
Which is cool because thats the same as my AoE pull.

The trick though, is that your target needs to stay at range >10m until you can Jet Charge. If not, you have lost that free attack and thus lost more than u gained.

/Discuss

[Mesrith]

(12-07-2011 09:41 AM)Poombibio Wrote:  Two things I have noticed from my opening sequence sims:

Unload is not ideal for opening due to possible lost heat regen of Shield Vents proc.
16Heat - (5HpS*3seconds) = 1 Heat after regular heat regen. Thus if Shield Vents procs, 7 heats are wasted)

That doesn't make any sense . You're at 1 heat without needing a SV proc...that's as ideal as it gets. It doesn't matter if a SV proc gets wasted if you're almost at zero heat, because you're almost at zero heat.

Honestly for most boss pulls I'd probably just pop Explosive Dart and then Jet Charge in to start Rocket Punching their face though. Unload has it's issues (channeled, interruptible), but it's at least something for pulling low-level flashpoints before we have all of our tools.

[Poombibio]

What im saying is that, to me, DFA makes alot more sense to open compared with Unload as it hits much harder as unload in the same 3 seconds, yet it only costs 3.25 more heat if SV procs, which of course depends on the mob(melee or ranged, fast attacks or slow)

SV can only proc once every 6 seconds according to the tooltip, so if one procs when you are at 1 heat, that chance is gone over the next 4(at least) GCDs.

Im with ya on keeping it simple on the Explosive Dart>Jet Charge but if i can frontload mad threat at minimal cost(especially 2 high cost CDs), Im gonna take it, if it doesnt get too difficult.

[LadyRepublic]

Speaking as a vanguard tank, I also prefer - even on single target - opening with our DFA, Mortar Volley. At least in lower levels it seems to generate more threat than Full Auto. In practice - again, low levels - I'd open with MV, then use Full Auto on the primary target as it ran to me before launching in to additional attacks.

Also - is there a reason Explosive Round/Missile Blast isn't used in the AoE rotation?

My typical opening AoE rotation was closer to Mortar Volley, Full Auto as needed (sometimes, not always), Explosive Round, Stock Strike on my primary target, then adjusting as needed based on ammo consumption and who was still standing.

Converted to BH lingo, I think this is something along the lines of: DFA, Unload as needed, Missile Blast, Rocket Punch.

Again, this was all under 20 so I didn't get a lot of the higher level abilities - but for low levels, that seemed to work fairly well. Definitely interested to hear feedback.

[Mesrith]

The AoE splash damage of Missile Blast is just terrible, just over 10% of the damage to the main target. By the time you get Flame Sweep I don't think Missile Blast is worth it's 25 heat cost.

Yeah I don't have a problem opening with DFA if it's not needed for add spawns during a fight. I probably won't do it on single targets much because it's interruptible, and I'd rather get into range for our powerful melee options immediately rather than float in place for 3 seconds. I think the chance of wasting our first SV proc is unavoidable and negligible, especially since we'll have Heat Blast ready to go right away.

[Poombibio]

(12-08-2011 12:19 AM)LadyRepublic Wrote:  Also - is there a reason Explosive Round/Missile Blast isn't used in the AoE rotation?

Again, this was all under 20 so I didn't get a lot of the higher level abilities - but for low levels, that seemed to work fairly well. Definitely interested to hear feedback.

The main reason is that the splash damage of Explosive Round/Missle Blast sucks compared to Sticky Grenade/Explosive Dart. Sticky Grenade does relative damage to Explosive Round per Ammo in the single target AND you get full splash damage on the same 3 targets. Looking at Torhead, it doesn't mention that AoE in the tooltip for Sticky Grenade, but it does for Explosive Dart.

We think Sticky Grenade/Explosive Dart is a main stay of our tanks rotation, especially as it can be used instantly from the full 30m range, albeit, its on the low end of priority.