Sorc Healing PvP Discussion

[Kaedis]

Frankly, I would question to benefit of a 20% speed boost for only 3 seconds on Barrier (particularly at the cost of 4 talent points, 2 of which can go towards increasing healing done) when compared to an extra 5 seconds off Force Speed and an additional 3% force cost reduction or 3% willpower. I would also seriously question the benefit of Lightning Spire, since you only have one of the 3 abilities it affects, and it's easily your worst damage ability. I might almost suggest Lightning Barrage instead, a quick-cast Force Lightning is a potent addition to a target burn, and there's no reason not to keep Affliction rolling on at least the opposing healer, if not all of their ranged, if for no other reason than to keep their healer busy cleansing instead of healing.

[theoriginalaks]

(12-10-2011 07:25 AM)Kor Wrote:  Frankly, I would question to benefit of a 20% speed boost for only 3 seconds on Barrier (particularly at the cost of 4 talent points, 2 of which can go towards increasing healing done) when compared to an extra 5 seconds off Force Speed and an additional 3% force cost reduction or 3% willpower. I would also seriously question the benefit of Lightning Spire, since you only have one of the 3 abilities it affects, and it's easily your worst damage ability. I might almost suggest Lightning Barrage instead, a quick-cast Force Lightning is a potent addition to a target burn, and there's no reason not to keep Affliction rolling on at least the opposing healer, if not all of their ranged, if for no other reason than to keep their healer busy cleansing instead of healing.

The important thing to consider about Lightning Strike and Subversion/Lightning Spire and Force Lightning and Lightning Barrage is range and purpose.

I chose Subversion and Lightning Spire not really for dps but because I had to take some talents to open up the tree and this route gives you a 35 yard range ability that buffs your force regen up to 30%. In essence you are doing a bit of dps but its mostly with the goal of improving your healing at long range while maybe proccing Lightning Effusion for free heals.

Going for lightning barrage and affliction does nothing to improve your healing and the improved spell, force lightning has a 10m range which is far from optimal. You also get no talents to improve the damage of force lightning so the dps from a few afflictions and a rare chance to use a lightning barrage buffed force lightning will either be a less than useful time allocation or overkill for the situation.

As for why I want to go for the speed boost over another point in effusion or extra healing or willpower also has to do with overkill. Sorcerers already have incredibly strong healing and self-defense but they are lacking on utility. Haunting Presence only brings 2% healing to already top of the line healing and really represents overkill for the point investment. Conspiring Force adds a highly situational and counter-intuitive CC to a class that already has access to amazing CC. However Fadeout gives the sorcerer a boost to mobility and utility both of which it lacks relative to CC and healing.

[Darklighter]

(12-10-2011 08:33 AM)theoriginalaks Wrote:  The important thing to consider about Lightning Strike and Subversion/Lightning Spire and Force Lightning and Lightning Barrage is range and purpose.

I chose Subversion and Lightning Spire not really for dps but because I had to take some talents to open up the tree and this route gives you a 35 yard range ability that buffs your force regen up to 30%. In essence you are doing a bit of dps but its mostly with the goal of improving your healing at long range while maybe proccing Lightning Effusion for free heals.

Going for lightning barrage and affliction does nothing to improve your healing and the improved spell, force lightning has a 10m range which is far from optimal. You also get no talents to improve the damage of force lightning so the dps from a few afflictions and a rare chance to use a lightning barrage buffed force lightning will either be a less than useful time allocation or overkill for the situation.

As for why I want to go for the speed boost over another point in effusion or extra healing or willpower also has to do with overkill. Sorcerers already have incredibly strong healing and self-defense but they are lacking on utility. Haunting Presence only brings 2% healing to already top of the line healing and really represents overkill for the point investment. Conspiring Force adds a highly situational and counter-intuitive CC to a class that already has access to amazing CC. However Fadeout gives the sorcerer a boost to mobility and utility both of which it lacks relative to CC and healing.

While we disagree about the usefulness of Conspiring Force, and I dont (personally) like Fadeout taking 4 talents points, I dont understand the first tier of your Lightning Tree.

You chose to go 1/3 Electric Induction and 3/3 Convection. Convection only benefits 2 talents (at most) in this build and those being Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness. Even if you are casting those more than rarely (which is uncommon as a healer) you are doing it more to annoy than to actually DPS. Seeing as this is more of healing build swapping those two around would provide more benefit to the build. It gives you more staying power for longer healing situations.

[theoriginalaks]

Quote:While we disagree about the usefulness of Conspiring Force, and I dont (personally) like Fadeout taking 4 talents points, I dont understand the first tier of your Lightning Tree.

You chose to go 1/3 Electric Induction and 3/3 Convection. Convection only benefits 2 talents (at most) in this build and those being Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness. Even if you are casting those more than rarely (which is uncommon as a healer) you are doing it more to annoy than to actually DPS. Seeing as this is more of healing build swapping those two around would provide more benefit to the build. It gives you more staying power for longer healing situations.

I think I had it that way because I was basing it off a more dps heavy build where I moved one point from chain lightning to convection and just didn't thank anything more about it. You are right though, bit of an oversight on my part.

I wish that last point had a better home though. It has to go somewhere in the first three tiers of lightning to unlock the fourth one and there is nothing really interesting left. I guess going back into chain lightning could have some merit as a way to interrupt multiple people capping a node but that's pretty tenuous because my goodness is a 3 second cast 10m range aoe a waste of time in pvp for a healer.

Heres the slightly updated build

Also, the important thing to remember about Fade out is that it effects everyone you cast the barrier on. Conspiring Force is only useful if the target is being actively focused, and thus won't be cc'ed by things that break on damage, and no one else has an equal or better snare.

A 20% target-able sprint is pretty much always useful. The only other thing you lose out on is 2% extra healing and Sorc healing is already more than strong enough to not notice it.

[Darklighter]

Yea I can see the reasoning for taking Fadeout. Since you mentioned it working on other players, does anyone know (for 100%) if Backlash does the same? I never thought to test it in BETA and Ive been curious about it.

And yeah I see Chain Lightning having some uses, like you mentioned preventing node caps is a great one. But in just about every build you have to 'waste' points somewhere, so Chain lightning seems like the logical choice.

[-IR-]

(12-10-2011 01:59 PM)Darklighter Wrote:  Yea I can see the reasoning for taking Fadeout. Since you mentioned it working on other players, does anyone know (for 100%) if Backlash does the same?

The talent merely states that "Your Static Barrier has a 100% chance to erupt in a flash of light when it ends, blinding all nearby enemies for 3 seconds."

I guess it could mean that the Static Barrier casted by you blinds enemies when it ends in which case it would work if the barrier was on others OR that it only effects the Static Barrier placed upon yourself the Sorcerer. If I had to take a guess though, I'd have to go with the former.

[Kaedis]

Quote:The important thing to consider about Lightning Strike and Subversion/Lightning Spire and Force Lightning and Lightning Barrage is range and purpose.

I chose Subversion and Lightning Spire not really for dps but because I had to take some talents to open up the tree and this route gives you a 35 yard range ability that buffs your force regen up to 30%. In essence you are doing a bit of dps but its mostly with the goal of improving your healing at long range while maybe proccing Lightning Effusion for free heals.

Going for lightning barrage and affliction does nothing to improve your healing and the improved spell, force lightning has a 10m range which is far from optimal. You also get no talents to improve the damage of force lightning so the dps from a few afflictions and a rare chance to use a lightning barrage buffed force lightning will either be a less than useful time allocation or overkill for the situation.

Frankly, if that's your goal, I'd go for a Madness subspec instead. Force Lightning, particularly 4 points at tier 3, becomes a force battery, regenerating barely less per second than you'd get just by standing there.

Lightning Strike, on the other hand, barely breaks even with Subversion. Even assuming you get a full 10 seconds of 3 stacks per cast (basically impossible, especially in PvP), the absolute max you'll get back from a single Lightning Strike is 24 force, plus 12 during the time you were casting from base regen. That's 36 force, for the cost of 30, a net 6 gain.

Force Lightning, on the other hand, regens 4 ticks of 6 over 3 seconds, totally 24 from Sith Efficacy and 24 from base regen, total of 48, for a cost of 30 and a net gain of 18. Far more effective. Add to that that Force Lightning hits far harder than Lightning Strike, and has a 50% snare attached (good for helping peel off teammates), and it's a solid PvP ability.

As far as Fadeout vs. Conspiring Force, I'd honestly put them basically dead-even on benefit. 20% snare on any target, with a DoT attached, or a 20% speed boost for a couple seconds on shield drop. Both useful, both basically aiming to do the same thing. The one thing to note is that Conspiring Force has no cooldown, while Fadeout does. Pick your poison, I guess.

[theoriginalaks]

Quote:Frankly, if that's your goal, I'd go for a Madness subspec instead. Force Lightning, particularly 4 points at tier 3, becomes a force battery, regenerating barely less per second than you'd get just by standing there.

Lightning Strike, on the other hand, barely breaks even with Subversion. Even assuming you get a full 10 seconds of 3 stacks per cast (basically impossible, especially in PvP), the absolute max you'll get back from a single Lightning Strike is 24 force, plus 12 during the time you were casting from base regen. That's 36 force, for the cost of 30, a net 6 gain.

Force Lightning, on the other hand, regens 4 ticks of 6 over 3 seconds, totally 24 from Sith Efficacy and 24 from base regen, total of 48, for a cost of 30 and a net gain of 18. Far more effective. Add to that that Force Lightning hits far harder than Lightning Strike, and has a 50% snare attached (good for helping peel off teammates), and it's a solid PvP ability.

As far as Fadeout vs. Conspiring Force, I'd honestly put them basically dead-even on benefit. 20% snare on any target, with a DoT attached, or a 20% speed boost for a couple seconds on shield drop. Both useful, both basically aiming to do the same thing. The one thing to note is that Conspiring Force has no cooldown, while Fadeout does. Pick your poison, I guess.

Its not my "goal" its simply picking the least useless talents in lightning on the way to the most useful ones. I doubt I will spend much of any time spamming Lightning Strike but I have to put points in something to get backlash so I might as well pick the ones closest to healing that I can. I never once argued that these were good talents, simply that as a healer these are slightly less bad than just dps focused ones.

I also simply can not agree that they are equal. A 20% snare is run of the mill, those two points bring nothing to the field that another class can't do better. On top of that a 20% snare that also makes any break on damage cc useless between 15 and 21 seconds just borders on pointless.

Fadeout on the other hand is mostly unique. Its important to understand that I am not arguing that Fadeout is amazing, simply an average improvement every time its used is a better point investment than something that ranges from a minor improvement to an outright disadvantage, like Conspiring Force.

[Varkeer]

I am partial to a build along these lines:

http://beta.knotor.com/skills#AgcfBwMJKj...K6y9LS2QAA

Mainly I just debate whether to switch Dark Resilience and Fadeout for Resurgence, Force Bending and Reconstruct.

And also lowering the tree on top and branching up more in Lightning or Madness.

[chrissybunny]

(12-10-2011 08:33 AM)theoriginalaks Wrote:  Going for lightning barrage and affliction does nothing to improve your healing and the improved spell, force lightning has a 10m range which is far from optimal. You also get no talents to improve the damage of force lightning so the dps from a few afflictions and a rare chance to use a lightning barrage buffed force lightning will either be a less than useful time allocation or overkill for the situation.

I wish that last point had a better home though. It has to go somewhere in the first three tiers of lightning to unlock the fourth one and there is nothing really interesting left. I guess going back into chain lightning could have some merit as a way to interrupt multiple people capping a node but that's pretty tenuous because my goodness is a 3 second cast 10m range aoe a waste of time in pvp for a healer.

Both spells ahve a 30m range unless that changed recently. Assassins have force lightning on 10m, but sorcs have 30m, and CL has always been 30/35m.