[Archive] Immortal Juggernaut (SW) | Defense Guardian (JK) Compendium

[davidentp]

Thank you sir! If I could figure out how to give rep, I would. If you can answer this question there's more rep in it for ya!

[Rystet]

Thanks for your explanations Gwarr.

The Second build you suggested is almost exactly what I have been working up.
I have been bouncing a point between Crash and a second point in Saberward. But I am leaning toward Crash atm.

[Masterkiller]

The guide is great, a very large amount of information compiled into a single post. I have referenced it several times. One base principle we need to apply for this guide and any other guide on the site is the aim for the top level of content whether it be PvE or PvP. This means all roles should be min/max. Tanks should have as much survivability as they possibly can, their only role is to stay alive and hold threat. Healers maximize their healing ability and dps maximize their damage ability. There is no hybridization in raiding/operating and utility is only a factor if there is a specific need for it, not conditional.

That said, Operation tanks for end game content need to acquire as much survivability as they possibly can. Threat comes secondary to survivability and utility/crowd control behind threat. Damage is not our role, but if the ability to perform more damage without sacrificing any of the higher priorities is available then we should work towards more damage abilities.

I would pick up Barricade and Shield Specialization.

Barricade: 3/3 - Saber Ward will most likely end up with a 2 minute cooldown and a 12 second duration. Without Barricade, Saber Ward has 10% uptime and with Barricade, Saber Ward has a 13% uptime. The more important factor is boss "special" attacks or those attacks on a timer. The uptime of Saber Ward during the "special" will be much higher with Barricade as long as the timer is less then 120 seconds (which it should). 50% avoidance every 90 seconds can be quite powerful especially if coupled with another cooldown.

Shield Specialization: 2/2 I would grab this as well. We don't FULLY know shield mechanics, but currently it only works on blasters (and assumed melee) and proc rate is low. However, it's passive and the trade off isn't survivability vs survivability. It's threat/dps vs survivability and survivability always wins in those scenarios. It would take a very strong argument not to pick up a survivability skill.

[cerberias]

What happens if you find out some of the bosses are dps tests, don't do much damage until enrage, and you're having trouble keeping threat with the required dps? Not all bosses are centred around big tank damage, and if it turns out the threat isn't that great, then you're going to have to go for threat gen instead of survivability. Simple as that. That being said it would really suck to have to spec for threat gen against certain bosses without a dual class system or similar.

[Dass]

In my experience some of these tweaks in spec will come down to the player's ability, some will need the extra survivability and others will want the dps/threat to cover any shortcomings they have in either gear or playing ability. Looking at the talents so far I can't see myself going without Barricade for that extra avoidance which can be a saver in any battle, still not convinced by Shield Specialization as I'm unsure if the increase in survivability (how much) is going to be worth the dropped points. While extra DPS/Threat is great with the numerous talents we already have increased damage in do we really need Sweeping Fury on top of that, is it going to be a talent that's used often enough or generates high enough TPR to justify it.

[Alratan]

(09-13-2011 04:30 PM)cerberias Wrote:  What happens if you find out some of the bosses are dps tests, don't do much damage until enrage, and you're having trouble keeping threat with the required dps? Not all bosses are centred around big tank damage, and if it turns out the threat isn't that great, then you're going to have to go for threat gen instead of survivability.

In recent MMO times, the vast majority of endgame boss fights require aiming for tank survivability and making up threat elsewhere than the other way around. This is even more likely for SW:TOR given the large number of threat reducing abilities that all players have in SW:TOR, such as Guard abilities for tanks and threat reducing moves for DPS/healers. It is far safer to assume that survivability is a must and threat can be accommodated later than the other way around.

(09-13-2011 05:33 PM)Dass Wrote:  In my experience some of these tweaks in spec will come down to the player's ability, some will need the extra survivability and others will want the dps/threat to cover any shortcomings they have in either gear or playing ability.

Covering up shortcomings in playing ability isn't really of interest to us when making an ideal guide/spec, as we have to assume that the players are of a decent level in order for the exercise to be in any way worthwhile. As the guide is aimed at the endgame, we should assume that the fights are hard and that everyone will want as much of a survivability boost as possible. The exception occurs when there are genuinely equal choices (in terms of overall power) between certain builds, providing commentary on them within a guide is probably good for completeness.

If we know there to be some fights which are otherwise difficult for threat, then a separate, threat-heavy build may be worthwhile, but I have never encountered a fight I found so difficult to hold aggro on that I had to specialise differently for it, without there being some other special fight mechanic at work (e.g. cannot go in melee at all, no resource regeneration).

[Dass]

(09-13-2011 07:54 PM)Alratan Wrote:  Covering up shortcomings in playing ability isn't really of interest to us when making an ideal guide/spec, as we have to assume that the players are of a decent level in order for the exercise to be in any way worthwhile. As the guide is aimed at the endgame, we should assume that the fights are hard and that everyone will want as much of a survivability boost as possible. The exception occurs when there are genuinely equal choices (in terms of overall power) between certain builds, providing commentary on them within a guide is probably good for completeness.

If we know there to be some fights which are otherwise difficult for threat, then a separate, threat-heavy build may be worthwhile, but I have never encountered a fight I found so difficult to hold aggro on that I had to specialise differently for it, without there being some other special fight mechanic at work (e.g. cannot go in melee at all, no resource regeneration).

You are correct it was a poor choice of words for such a discussion and while my thoughts centred around that some decisions when putting together a build may be neither right nor wrong due to possibly being of equal standard I should have put it across far better than I did.

Looking at the talents I'm not convinced Thrown Gauntlet is worth the 2 points which could be used for something like Barricade. The reduction of the cooldown to 30sec for Threatening Scream shouldn't be necessary with access to Smash/Sweeping Slash for holding multiple aggro. As for Force Push the tool tip suggests that its main benefit of knocking down opponents will not be applicable in Boss fights.

Crash while nice for a PvP scenario and maybe early end game PvE I'm not sure the extra stun effect will be applicable in raiding circles, though its possible that may be false.

[GWARRR]

Yeah, over the last couple of days, a new build has been cooked up, which is viewable here. It prioritizes survivability over any potential utility, so things like Thrown Gauntlet have been swapped for Barricade and Shield Specialization.

According to beta testers, there was a new build released today, so we will have to see how SWs have changed and adapt accordingly. That being said, guide overhaul likely due around the end of the week.

[Masterkiller]

(09-13-2011 04:30 PM)cerberias Wrote:  What happens if you find out some of the bosses are dps tests, don't do much damage until enrage, and you're having trouble keeping threat with the required dps? Not all bosses are centred around big tank damage, and if it turns out the threat isn't that great, then you're going to have to go for threat gen instead of survivability. Simple as that. That being said it would really suck to have to spec for threat gen against certain bosses without a dual class system or similar.

That is a lot of "what ifs" that are centered around a specific boss scenario in your comment. The maintank position must min/max for their primary role which is survivability. If your guild is failing the dps check, then the DPS needs to improve. The amount of difference in dps you would receive from removing Shield Spec and Barricade would be minimal. The better solution if you are a world first guild would be to drop a healer and have all players mitigate some of their own damage.

When creating the end-game template, it needs to be focused around maximum survivability. If there is a specific reason to throttle back survivability in favor for another priority, that can always be done. However, you don't present a hybrid survivability/threat/utility build for end game raiding and then suggest players increase their survivability if they die.

[Swtorgaming]

A lot of solid information guys, great work on the site btw..Been checking you guys out for awhile now and being a future Sith Warrior I will be following this closely.