Sith Assassin PvP

[guardian17]

Assassin PVP Discussion. As of the current build, it is rumored that madness is the best tree for pvp, even for assassins. What are your thoughts?

I personally feel that madness looks to be very strong in pvp, while deep deception looks pretty weak. Oddly enough however, the tanking tree looks surprisingly strong for pvp.

The assassin tank spec seems like the most fun tank to play in pvp compared to other tanks (immortal tank or powertech tank). It has the best self healing, uses the best resource system (much better than rage, maybe tied with heat), and has the coolest pvp talents within a tanking tree. I would never have considered playing a tank, being a pvp focused player. However, the assassin tanking tree has absolutely awesome pvp talents that has made me reconsider whether I want to play a tank in pvp.

[Gorodetski]

true Assassin have alot of Pvp flavoured talented (lookin at you Nerve Wracking )...

but one thing I HAVE noticed is that both the other tank classes have a 'increases health by 30% for 15 seconds' talent and a 'decreased damage by 40% for 10 seconds' talent, both of which are clearly absent from Sith Assassin tank trees... now as we dont get them baseline (closest thing we have is Deflection, 50% increased Melee and Ranged defense) it leaves me thinking that Assassins may end up as 'AoE/Add tanks' in bleeding edge progression guilds, with BH/SW's taking the 'main tank' role, due to superior survivability CD's, we're also the only tanks without some form of 'charge' attack, Warriors having Force Leap, and Bounty hunters having Jet Charge *cough*wtb Sithstep*cough*

anyone else share my worries?

[guardian17]

(09-02-2011 01:36 PM)Gorodetski Wrote:  true Assassin have alot of Pvp flavoured talented (lookin at you Nerve Wracking )...

but one thing I HAVE noticed is that both the other tank classes have a 'increases health by 30% for 15 seconds' talent and a 'decreased damage by 40% for 10 seconds' talent, both of which are clearly absent from Sith Assassin tank trees... now as we dont get them baseline (closest thing we have is Deflection, 50% increased Melee and Ranged defense) it leaves me thinking that Assassins may end up as 'AoE/Add tanks' in bleeding edge progression guilds, with BH/SW's taking the 'main tank' role, due to superior survivability CD's, we're also the only tanks without some form of 'charge' attack, Warriors having Force Leap, and Bounty hunters having Jet Charge *cough*wtb Sithstep*cough*

anyone else share my worries?

The concerns you brought up are exactly why I love the Assassin tank. The 30% health which expires after 15 seconds is great for pve, because it can allow healers to keep you from dying. In pvp however, it is not nearly as good because you don't always have a healer, and the burst is more unpredictable making it hard to time usage of the ability. The 40% less damage for 10 seconds ability is quite a bit better, but it has a hefty cooldown of 3 minutes, which is far too long for my tastes in pvp.

I much prefer the assassin style tanking of the shield with charges, which u can refresh every 12 seconds and lasts 20 seconds. That looks like a very fun mechanic, which is better suited for pvp because it doesnt require unpredictable burst timing. The lack of a 40% damage reduction for 10 seconds is easily made up for with self healing, the awesome pvp utility talents in the tree which lower cooldown of deflection, force shroud, and force speed, and the stun (spike).

If the talents stay anything like they are now I see Assassins being the best tank for pvp combat. Guardians will be the best tanks for carrying a huttball or defending nodes but garbage at everything else (worst pvp tank), and trooper tank hybrids wil be quite good too (range and self heals).

Shadow PVP Tank Spec (Assassin Mirror)
http://www.war-tools.com/t73162.html?b=9...323002011j

Vanguard PVP Tank Spec (Bounty Hunter Mirror)
http://www.war-tools.com/t73214.html?b=9...232122211h

Didn't bother making a guardian/juggernaut pvp build as I find the immortal tree to be atrocious.

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Anyone else feel like the tanking tree has better pvp talents then the dps tree? Here is the best pvp spec Ive come up with.

http://www.war-tools.com/t73162.html?b=9...323002011j

[Alratan]

From some posts in the Sith Assassin Tanking Compendium thread, I've created this new thread, so we don't have the two discussions running through each other quite as confusingly, especially once we start discussing skill trees other than Darkness. Please keep all PvP related discussion in this thread.

(09-02-2011 01:58 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  Anyone else feel like the tanking tree has better pvp talents then the dps tree? Here is the best pvp spec Ive come up with.

http://www.war-tools.com/t73162.html?b=9...323002011j

It's quite good for very fast arena battles and probably for some occasions in Warzones, however. I imagine that Darkness Assassins will have an edge in PvP 1v1 against classes with no healing and when cooldowns are off, but their lack of burst is a bit of a liability for larger battles.

The build you linked, for instance, doesn't have any significant damage increases from skills aside from Blackout related skills. Deception skills such as Crackling Blasts + Static Charges (Deep Impact + Exit Strategy) allows for very nice burst, as does Voltaic Slash + Energize (Clairvoyant Slash + Shadowy Veil). I'd probably go with a build like this for mainly Deception PvP.

Of course, then there's Madness Assassins, which we haven't considered at all, and has some lovely life-stealing + DoT goodness, such as this build. A 21s DoT (Lightning Discharge), an 18s DoT (Creeping Doom) and a 6s DoT (Crushing Darkness) will be quite nice for some constant damage and health recovery, with some extra CC as well.

[Piree]

(09-02-2011 01:58 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  The concerns you brought up are exactly why I love the Assassin tank. The 30% health which expires after 15 seconds is great for pve, because it can allow healers to keep you from dying. In pvp however, it is not nearly as good because you don't always have a healer, and the burst is more unpredictable making it hard to time usage of the ability. The 40% less damage for 10 seconds ability is quite a bit better, but it has a hefty cooldown of 3 minutes, which is far too long for my tastes in pvp.

I much prefer the assassin style tanking of the shield with charges, which u can refresh every 12 seconds and lasts 20 seconds. That looks like a very fun mechanic, which is better suited for pvp because it doesnt require unpredictable burst timing. The lack of a 40% damage reduction for 10 seconds is easily made up for with self healing, the awesome pvp utility talents in the tree which lower cooldown of deflection, force shroud, and force speed, and the stun (spike).

If the talents stay anything like they are now I see Assassins being the best tank for pvp combat. Guardians will be the best tanks for carrying a huttball or defending nodes but garbage at everything else (worst pvp tank), and trooper tank hybrids wil be quite good too (range and self heals).

Shadow PVP Tank Spec (Assassin Mirror)
http://www.war-tools.com/t73162.html?b=9...323002011j

Vanguard PVP Tank Spec (Bounty Hunter Mirror)
http://www.war-tools.com/t73214.html?b=9...232122211h

Didn't bother making a guardian/juggernaut pvp build as I find the immortal tree to be atrocious.

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Anyone else feel like the tanking tree has better pvp talents then the dps tree? Here is the best pvp spec Ive come up with.

http://www.war-tools.com/t73162.html?b=9...323002011j

I would take different talents for the Assassin, don't know why you made it in a Jedi Consular talent calculator either

I would go for something like this:
http://war-tools.com/t73007.html?b=92230...302012201i

Why do I go madness instead of deception?

Tier1: Will of Sith and Exploitive Strikes, pretty obvious that they will be good.

Tier2:
Chain Shock: Shock will be a major damage dealer, especially with Energize from Darkness tree
Oppressing Force: Overload knocks back all targets around , 1min CD. Having it available every 50 seconds it's very nice, The same counts for Electrocute. Electrocute also activates nerve wrecking.

Tier3:
Death Field: Apparantly this does a lot of damage as Sith Sorcerer, as Assassin it will steal do a lot of damage, as willpower will boost the damage too. It also regenerates health for you.
Claws of Decay: Trash will be our major melee damage dealer, having a 50% damage increase on crits is really a big improvement.
Fanaticism: You will want to cast death field as much as possible, so having it only cost 25 force is really useful.
Raze: Having a very powerful DoT become instant and cost no force is something very useful as you are not always standing in melee range of your target. Might change this if Crushing Darkness is not really useful, but having it in Madness tree and requires a melee talent, I think Crushing Darkness will be really good.

[Sol]

(09-02-2011 05:49 PM)Alratan Wrote:  Of course, then there's Madness Assassins, which we haven't considered at all, and has some lovely life-stealing + DoT goodness, such as this build. A 21s DoT (Lightning Discharge), an 18s DoT (Creeping Doom) and a 6s DoT (Crushing Darkness) will be quite nice for some constant damage and health recovery, with some extra CC as well.

While I don't claim to know much about Sith Assassins I'm very keen to try a build like this or similar. The main attraction about this tree is versatility. Dots, life stealing, melee attacks, ranged attacks...seems like no matter where you are at on the battle field you'll have some weapons to utilise and the rolling heals to keep on keeping on. Wheather this spec will have issues bringing enough burst 1 v 1 to drop healers is another story. (I'm not sure what Force regen is like for healers and if they can never 'OOM'). For group however play I see these guys to be great as they can stand back when it gets a bit too heavy and then jump in when it's more suitable all the while keeping a steady stream of damage up. While they aren't as mobile as other specs, they don't need to be with their ranged attacks and dots that will keep pressure on a target until they can close again.

[guardian17]

(09-02-2011 05:49 PM)Alratan Wrote:  From some posts in the Sith Assassin Tanking Compendium thread, I've created this new thread, so we don't have the two discussions running through each other quite as confusingly, especially once we start discussing skill trees other than Darkness. Please keep all PvP related discussion in this thread.

(09-02-2011 01:58 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  Anyone else feel like the tanking tree has better pvp talents then the dps tree? Here is the best pvp spec Ive come up with.

http://www.war-tools.com/t73162.html?b=9...323002011j

It's quite good for very fast arena battles and probably for some occasions in Warzones, however. I imagine that Darkness Assassins will have an edge in PvP 1v1 against classes with no healing and when cooldowns are off, but their lack of burst is a bit of a liability for larger battles.

The build you linked, for instance, doesn't have any significant damage increases from skills aside from Blackout related skills. Deception skills such as Crackling Blasts + Static Charges (Deep Impact + Exit Strategy) allows for very nice burst, as does Voltaic Slash + Energize (Clairvoyant Slash + Shadowy Veil). I'd probably go with a build like this for mainly Deception PvP.

Of course, then there's Madness Assassins, which we haven't considered at all, and has some lovely life-stealing + DoT goodness, such as this build. A 21s DoT (Lightning Discharge), an 18s DoT (Creeping Doom) and a 6s DoT (Crushing Darkness) will be quite nice for some constant damage and health recovery, with some extra CC as well.

I think you are spot on in your assessment. A darkness assassin looks to have the tools to excel in 1on1, and in warzones as well using the guard and taunt ability to defend teamates. The build I linked does lack high pressure burst outside of the stealth opener, so fighting a team with heavy heals will be a major headache if you don't have dps teamates.

There are actually a fair amount of damage buffs in the build I linked. I buffed thrash damage by 9%, charge damage by 9%, energy regen rate by 30% (which is probably at least a 10% boost to dps), 6 second stealth buff, 4 second blackout buff, and thrashes making shock 50% cheaper with a standard 100% chance to crit on average. In addition, these crit shocks increase my melee crit by 9% for 10 seconds. So the amount of damage boost my build has through talents is actually surprisingly high.

Tier 5+ in deception looks very PVE focused and not too good for PVP. Madness on the other hand is a different story, and appears very strong for pvp. Unfortunately its a bit too caster for my tastes, and strays from the darth maul type playstyle I'm aiming for. I want to play assassin as a melee class with some force abilities, not as a caster (even though madness looks to be very strong). So to close, I pretty much agree on all your points except that deep darkness seems better for most all kinds of pvp then deep deception at this point.

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(09-02-2011 06:00 PM)Piree Wrote:  I would take different talents for the Assassin, don't know why you made it in a Jedi Consular talent calculator either

I would go for something like this:
http://war-tools.com/t73007.html?b=92230...302012201i

Why do I go madness instead of deception?

Tier1: Will of Sith and Exploitive Strikes, pretty obvious that they will be good.

Tier2:
Chain Shock: Shock will be a major damage dealer, especially with Energize from Darkness tree
Oppressing Force: Overload knocks back all targets around , 1min CD. Having it available every 50 seconds it's very nice, The same counts for Electrocute. Electrocute also activates nerve wrecking.

Tier3:
Death Field: Apparantly this does a lot of damage as Sith Sorcerer, as Assassin it will steal do a lot of damage, as willpower will boost the damage too. It also regenerates health for you.
Claws of Decay: Trash will be our major melee damage dealer, having a 50% damage increase on crits is really a big improvement.
Fanaticism: You will want to cast death field as much as possible, so having it only cost 25 force is really useful.
Raze: Having a very powerful DoT become instant and cost no force is something very useful as you are not always standing in melee range of your target. Might change this if Crushing Darkness is not really useful, but having it in Madness tree and requires a melee talent, I think Crushing Darkness will be really good.

I think your spec looks good, but you made one critical error. I think static cling is a mandatory talent for all assassins that pvp. 60% slow that auto procs without using a global cooldown is too good to ignore. You should dump nerve wracking for static cling.

[Alratan]

(09-02-2011 07:33 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  There are actually a fair amount of damage buffs in the build I linked. I buffed thrash damage by 9%, charge damage by 9%, energy regen rate by 30% (which is probably at least a 10% boost to dps), 6 second stealth buff, 4 second blackout buff, and thrashes making shock 50% cheaper with a standard 100% chance to crit on average. In addition, these crit shocks increase my melee crit by 9% for 10 seconds. So the amount of damage boost my build has through talents is actually surprisingly high.

Not terribly controllable, though. Shock will be a Darkness Assassin's major damage move, but we can't back it up much with anything else.

(09-02-2011 07:33 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  Tier 5+ in deception looks very PVE focused and not too good for PVP. Madness on the other hand is a different story, and appears very strong for pvp. Unfortunately its a bit to caster for me, and strays from the darth maul type playstyle I'm aiming for. I want to play assassin as a melee class with some force abilities, not as a caster (even though madness looks to be very strong). So to close, I pretty much agree on all your points except that deep darkness seems better for most all kinds of pvp then deep deception at this point.

I think you might be forgetting Crackling Blasts, which is fantastic for PvP. Voltaic Slash is also pretty useful if you go that far, given that it increases Shock damage by 15% per charge, making it quite useful for burst, especially when combined with Crackling Blasts. Two VS charges + critted shock = shock dealing 260% of normal shock damage, which is very nice. Then there's a critted Surging Discharge with 5 charges, which also does 260% Discharge damage.

[guardian17]

What 18s dot is creeping doom?

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(09-02-2011 07:47 PM)Alratan Wrote:  

(09-02-2011 07:33 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  There are actually a fair amount of damage buffs in the build I linked. I buffed thrash damage by 9%, charge damage by 9%, energy regen rate by 30% (which is probably at least a 10% boost to dps), 6 second stealth buff, 4 second blackout buff, and thrashes making shock 50% cheaper with a standard 100% chance to crit on average. In addition, these crit shocks increase my melee crit by 9% for 10 seconds. So the amount of damage boost my build has through talents is actually surprisingly high.

Not terribly controllable, though. Shock will be a Darkness Assassin's major damage move, but we can't back it up much with anything else.

(09-02-2011 07:33 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  Tier 5+ in deception looks very PVE focused and not too good for PVP. Madness on the other hand is a different story, and appears very strong for pvp. Unfortunately its a bit to caster for me, and strays from the darth maul type playstyle I'm aiming for. I want to play assassin as a melee class with some force abilities, not as a caster (even though madness looks to be very strong). So to close, I pretty much agree on all your points except that deep darkness seems better for most all kinds of pvp then deep deception at this point.

I think you might be forgetting Crackling Blasts, which is fantastic for PvP. Voltaic Slash is also pretty useful if you go that far, given that it increases Shock damage by 15% per charge, making it quite useful for burst, especially when combined with Crackling Blasts. Two VS charges + critted shock = shock dealing 260% of normal shock damage, which is very nice. Then there's a critted Surging Discharge with 5 charges, which also does 260% Discharge damage.

The biggest problem I see with deception assassins is that they arent using dark charge, and so are essentially fighting in medium armor (if they get the armor buff talent). This makes dark ward a must have talent for any assassin that is pvping. Disjunction is also mandatory for assassin pvp, as it provides a snare break every 15 seconds along with a 150% sprint. So, being that 12 points in darkness is the minimum mandatory investment for a surpremely effective assassin pvp build (unless you go deep madness and rely on ranged attacks) I dont see the 31 point deception talent ever being used by pvp players who want a strong build. The tier 6 talent, crackling, is quite good for burst though. I can see 13 darkness 28 deception being quite good for a deception pvp build. Surging discharges + guaranteed crit shocks + crackling blasts is exceptional burst damage.

http://war-tools.com/t73007.html?b=92030...11032c213x

[Alratan]

(09-02-2011 07:54 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  What 18s dot is creeping doom?

Creeping Doom is the ability granted by the T7 Madness skill of the same name.

(09-02-2011 07:54 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  The biggest problem I see with deception assassins is that they arent using dark charge, and so are essentially fighting in medium armor (if they get the armor buff talent). This makes dark ward a must have talent for any assassin that is pvping.

Not necessarily. Dark Ward doesn't help against casters, and without Dark Ward they are in no worse a position for survivability than, say, rogues in WoW.

(09-02-2011 07:54 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  Disjunction is also mandatory for assassin pvp, as it provides a snare break every 15 seconds along with a 150% sprint.

You mean 20s.

(09-02-2011 07:54 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  So, being that 12 points in darkness is the minimum mandatory investment for a surpremely effective assassin pvp build (unless you go deep madness and rely on ranged attacks) I dont see the 31 point deception talent ever being used by pvp players who want a strong build. The tier 6 talent, crackling, is quite good for burst though. I can see 13 darkness 28 deception being quite good for a deception pvp build.

http://war-tools.com/t73007.html?b=92030...11032c213x

Whilst I don't disagree that the Darkness talents can be quite handy for snare relief, I'm still of the opinion that even your build loses a bit too much damage potential. It also doesn't have the cooldown reduction of Unbreakable Will or Jolt, which are very useful as well for PvP. I think that pure Deception Assassins will be better against casters, and your build against melee.

Madness has its own benefits, relying on stealing life and ranged attacks, with snares less of a problem.