Warrior PvP Discussion

[neocoma]

So I just checked again the Juggernaut trees and looked into the talents. As Juggernauts and Maraudersboth share the Rage tree I wondered if PvP builds might look pretty similar i.e. I assume there will be one cookiecutter build with minor differences.

Here's why:

As far as we know there are 41 points to spend into talents. As far as we know if you want to max out one tree you only have 10 points left which results in the well known 31/10 builds like in WoW.

I'll just name a few talents of which I think are must haves for PvP and therefore there is actually no real choice concerning PvP builds.

Tier 3
Relentless (0/2) Berserk has a 50% chance to Enrage you, removing and granting immunity to movement slowing effects for the duration.

This one you definately want to pick. While Berserk lasts 8 seconds this means 8 seconds of rampaging through the battlefield, not being able to be snared for its duration. And as we know movement is quite essencial for melee classes (while your force charge is on cd), this is a must have.

Tier 2
Force Alacrity (0/3) Reduces the cooldown of all Force abilities while in Shi-Cho form by 1 second.
This one is self explaining. Fighting Shi-Cho form every Force cooldown is reduced by 30% if maxed out. Well I dont know the exact cooldowns of all Force Powers but IF Force Charge counts as one, this means that you can leap around every 10 seconds instead of 15 secs. So this talents brings lots of utility and you dont want to miss that one.

Tier 4
Strangulate (0/2) Reduces the pushback sufferend while channeling Force Choke by 50%.
This one grants the effect of not being interrupted while Force Choking someone. As far as I see it you still have to channel this spell because the instant cast talents is in the immortal tree but at least no other player can interrupt you by hitting you. Though a kick ability will cancel the effect as will stuns, knockbacks and sleeps. I'm pretty sure about this one.

Tier 5
Shii-Cho Mastery (0/2) While in Schii-Cho form, your attacks ignore 10% of your targets armor.
Another self explainer. 20% armor ignore of your target while being in Schii-Cho form is a nice passive damage buff.

Tier 7
Force Crush (0/1) Progressively slows the target from 60% to 10% movement speed over (X) Seconds and deals (X) kinetic damage each second. At the end of the duration the target is crushed, and takes an additional (X) kinetic damage.

This one I think of as a reversed DK chains of ice ability before it was nerfed plus a dot. This one you definately want to pick and if not, what else should you choose?


From POV as a PvPer you want these talents. Your Schii-Cho form gets nice buffs from the rage tree, you get utility, shorter cooldowns, a self heal ability for 10% of your max health (which I didnt mention here) and other stuff which may come in handy.

Consider you go for 31 points in rage, what else can you pick then? And more importantly, what differs a rage specced jugg from a rage specced marauder except the LS wielding type? This is what I worry about atm, as I'm looking to go for pvp mainly.
And somehow this seems kind of boring in the end.

[Masterkiller]

I'm wondering if Force Choke is affected by Force Alacrity. If so, it further reduces the cooldown by 3 seconds, bringing the overall cooldown of Force Choke to 12 seconds. This brings up my second thought, Juggernaut spec'd for pvp would have an instant Force Choke every 12 seconds.

Rage Tier 1
Improved Force Choke 2/2 - By reducing the cooldown from 30 seconds to 15 seconds, that is a lot of choking.

Malice 3/3 - The other option being extending the stun from Force Charge by 1 second. I'd prefer the additional crit bonus for force based attacks. It will further improve your Force Choke.

Rage Tier 2
Crippling Strikes (2/2) - Ravage slows targets by 50% for 7 seconds. That's a nice LONG snare (depending on targets resolve meter).

Force Alacity (3/3) - Reduces all Force ability cooldowns by 3 seconds.

Payback (1/2) (Optional) - Unleash has 50% chance to heal 10% of your max life.

Rage Tier 3
Force Mastery (2/2) - Reduces cost of Force Scream by 2.

Obliterate (1/1) - 15 yard distance closer, 15 sec cooldown.

Relentless (2/2) - Berserk grants immunity to movement slowing effects (snares, not stuns)

Rage Tier 4
Dominate (2/2) - Grants your next Smash to be an automatic crit when used after Force Charge or Obliterate.

Strangulate (2/2) - Reduces pushback when attacked during your Force Choke by 100%

Rage Tier 5
Shii-Cho Mastery (2/2) - You now ignore 20% of your target's armor.

Shockwave (2/2) - Each tick of Force Choke and Force Crush increases the damage of your next smash by 100% (with 4 stacks).

Gravity (1/1) - Reduces rage cost of all movement slowing effects by 1.

Rage Tier 6
Brutality (2/2) - Increases Force Scream crit chance by 10%

Dark Resonance (3/3) - Increases the crit damage of all Force attacks by 30%

Rage Tier 7
Force Crush (1/1) 15 yd range, progressively slows target from 80% to 10% over 8 seconds and deals kinetic damage at the end.

Notes:
Gravity should affect Force Crush and Ravage.
I skipped Endless Rage, it just didn't seem worth the point for 1 point of rage every 6 seconds.

Immortal Tier 1
Echoing Scream (3/3) - Increases Force Scream damage by 15%.

Vengence Tier 1
Single Saber Mastery (3/3) - Increases melee damage by 6%

Decimate (2/3) - Increases Smash damage by 20% and lowers cooldown by 2 seconds.

Vengeance Tier 2
Accuracy (2/3) - Increases accuracy of melee and Force attacks by 2%

Im not sure how much Accuracy will play into PvP, but hit is a poweful dps stat. The 8 points in Vengeance buff Smash and saber based strikes (melee) by 6%. The Rage tree does a lot of Force damage, especially with Scream put into the rotation often. The 3 points in Echoing Scream will buff Force Scream further which is already benefiting from an additional 16% increased crit chance and 30% crit damage from Rage talents. Force Scream should be used heavily, especially since it stuns. Another option was to put 7 points in Immortal to get Consuming Howl which gives you 3% of your health back each time you use Force Scream. This may be the direction I actually go if the accuracy isn't that important.

[neocoma]

Hmm, I tried to play with some hybrid specs but I can't figure one out that feels right. Skills like Force Crush or Shatter seem too powerful to not pick them. And as these are Tier 7 talents you have to spec into deep Rage for PvP although Rage seems like the solo friendly spec while Vengeance might be more of a "hey, I got two pocket healers in my back, eat my saber." spec considering its damage potential. Shatter is a killer, about 1900 damage every 9 secs when the talent calculator is/stays correct.

I wonder ...how good is smash actually? It stuns normal enemies and immobilizes enemies anyway. Are players considered normal enemies? And how much damage is moderate damage? There are quite a lot of talents that push this skill.

[Sol]

Is there anywhere that has the Sith Maurader Skill trees? The reason I ask is that if the Carnage and Anihilation tree are more PvE centric than that would only leave the shared Rage tree as the PvP tree. Assuming this is true than I'm not seeing that there will be any real difference from going Jugg or Maurander for PvP as you will predominantly use the same skills...

While I know that the other trees certainly aren't woeful for PvP, I just can't see them coming close to the Rage tree with it's mixture of ranged and melee attacks, force scream that heals in addition to high mobility and force crush. Vengeance tree would be viable if you had a pocket healer but I generally like to plan for the worst. Immortal definitely looks viable especially teamed with a healer for holding bases (good luck trying to cap that base before help arrives).

If someone could please share some light on this subject that would be greatly appreciated! I'm sorry if this has been answered already, I did try and search it out yet couldn't find anything to confirm my suspicions.

[neocoma]

That's what I was thinking, too.

But I assume that you can roughly differ the trees as follows:

Juggs go for survivability (immortal), damage (vengeance) or utility (rage)

Marauders go for, well ...damage, damage and utility while one damage tree relies on dots while the other one ...I dont know ..lots of armor penetration, burst like damage? something like that.

Now assuming that if juggs and marauders both pick the rage tree for heavy utility, I'd say that juggs will own marauders due to their armor. Juggs got heavy armor while marauders only got light or medium armor.

I believe picking the trees highly depends on your playstyle i.e. from my POV it makes no sense at all to pick the rage tree as a marauder if you want to go for solo pvp a lot. Simply because you still got no survivability at all. Therefore sticking to the damage tree and maybe filling up with rage or even considering a hybrid spec should provide better results.

Marauders I suppose work like hit n run classes. Get in quick, cc your target, do some damage and get the fuck out again as quickly as possible, judging from what I've seen in the GC11 pvp videos so far. Ofc those players played like shit but that's the way it works I guess because they fell like flies when marauders where the center of the enemies' attention.

[Masterkiller]

I'm trying desperately to get some Marauder info, but right now we just have the Jedi Knight Sentinel abilities to go by. They are mirrors and there is a list in the Jedi Knight forum, but i'm not sure which build it is from.

[Pantelijus]

Problem is we dont have full info on Marauders and Juggs , talent trees have changed since last build and baseline abilities.

We really need some beta tester anonymously giving us some info to feed our addiction till NDA breaks.

[Masterkiller]

(08-25-2011 12:11 AM)neocoma Wrote:  Now assuming that if juggs and marauders both pick the rage tree for heavy utility, I'd say that juggs will own marauders due to their armor. Juggs got heavy armor while marauders only got light or medium armor.

Outoing damage
Looking at a PvP matchup with Marauder vs Jugg (Huttball) or vs Guardian Knight one thing to remember is bleed effects should ignore armor which is a huge chunk of damage by an Annihilation spec'd Marauder. If the Marauder is Rage spec'd we will see the same Force Scream crit based build as the Jugg that uses a lot of force based attacks which ignores the armor. There will be some difference, but I think it will be minimal. We still get medium armor.

Incoming damage
A Rage spec'd Jugg is going to be doing a combination of Force damage which is elemental and internal (ignoring armor), and saber based strikes which is energy damage (affected by armor). For this reason, I don't think we will see armor make a huge difference in PvP.

Armor will have no no/little effect when defending against force based classes who use internal and elemental damage. So the Jugg and Marauder are in the same boat here. I think both AC's will want to find the Sage that is throwing rocks at us quickly and stick a saber in their gut.

[Sennin]

(08-25-2011 12:34 AM)Masterkiller Wrote:  

(08-25-2011 12:11 AM)neocoma Wrote:  Now assuming that if juggs and marauders both pick the rage tree for heavy utility, I'd say that juggs will own marauders due to their armor. Juggs got heavy armor while marauders only got light or medium armor.

Outoing damage
Looking at a PvP matchup with Marauder vs Jugg (Huttball) or vs Guardian Knight one thing to remember is bleed effects should ignore armor which is a huge chunk of damage by an Annihilation spec'd Marauder. If the Marauder is Rage spec'd we will see the same Force Scream crit based build as the Jugg that uses a lot of force based attacks which ignores the armor. There will be some difference, but I think it will be minimal. We still get medium armor.

Incoming damage
A Rage spec'd Jugg is going to be doing a combination of Force damage which is elemental and internal (ignoring armor), and saber based strikes which is energy damage (affected by armor). For this reason, I don't think we will see armor make a huge difference in PvP.

Armor will have no no/little effect when defending against force based classes who use internal and elemental damage. So the Jugg and Marauder are in the same boat here. I think both AC's will want to find the Sage that is throwing rocks at us quickly and stick a saber in their gut.

In regards to:

Armor
While the armor may not play as big a part in survivability considering the varying attacks that penetrate or are unaffected by armor, I do think that the very high health pool of a Juggernaut vs Marauder will play a substantial effect.

Force attacks
Unfortunately, Force Scream is kinetic damage which is mitigated by armor, and so is Force Crush.

Force Choke cooldown
MK did your above PvP build account for a 30 sec cooldown b/c you have info that the 1 min / 3 sec channel Force Choke was inaccurate or just forgot and used the info from the Juggernaut Trees that are available?

DPS vs Survivability
I'm worried that the Marauder is heralded as the DPS class with no other role, however, it has been said that it will be a marginal dps advantage for a marginal loss in survivability. However, things I've been reading have been saying that the Marauder/Sentinel, while more bursty then other classes, give up a ton of survivability.

I understand the need to not make any one class a super DPS beast for PvE raid balance and whatnot, and that is fine, but I do expect the ratio of DPS to Survivability to be equal throughout all the classes. This game is trying to be a PvP game as well, so 1v1 comparisons are valid.

MK's Juggernaut PvP build
I have also been thinking of going PvP/Rage-tree based for the Shi-Cho form. However, I don't see a few of the talents in the same way as you did.

Rage Tier 2
Payback (2/2) (Mandatory) - Unleash has 50% chance to heal 10% of your max life.

I am thinking that the Payback skill will be invaluable to a Juggernaut. Juggs are supposed to have the highest health pool in the entire game, making 10% of the biggest health pie ....huge. On a small health pool class this skill would mean alot less, but on a Jugg............

(Granted its on a longer cooldown, but the guaranteed health restoration abilities will be money, even at the expense of some burst dps based on Smash attacks in the Rage tree.)


I (personally) would use this build for PvP (very similar):

Rage Tier 1
Improved Force Choke is renamed to Ravager
Ravager 2/2 - Reduces the cooldown of Ravage by 3 seconds and Force Choke by 10 seconds. (Note at this point, I believe there is a 1 min CD on Force Choke).

Malice 3/3 - The other option being extending the stun from Force Charge by 1 second. (I too) prefer the additional crit bonus for force based attacks. It will further improve your Force Choke.

Rage Tier 2
Crippling Strikes (2/2) - Ravage slows targets by 50% for 7 seconds. That's a nice LONG snare (depending on targets resolve meter). Agreed

Force Alacity (3/3) - Reduces all Force ability cooldowns by 3 seconds.

Payback (2/2) (Mandatory imo) - Unleash has 50% chance to heal 10% of your max life.

Rage Tier 3
Force Mastery (2/2) - Reduces cost of Force Scream by 2.

Obliterate (1/1) - 15 yard distance closer, 15 sec cooldown.

Relentless (2/2) - Berserk grants immunity to movement slowing effects (snares, not stuns)

Rage Tier 4
Dominate (2/2) - Grants your next Smash to be an automatic crit when used after Force Charge or Obliterate. (Required for Shii-Cho Mastery)

Strangulate (2/2) - Reduces pushback when attacked during your Force Choke by 100%

Endless Rage (1/1) -Gain 1 Rage when attacked in Shii-Cho, cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds. ( I want as much free automatic Rage as possible, and not tied to my normal melee-range based Rage builder skills, helps against kiters)

Rage Tier 5
Shii-Cho Mastery (2/2) - You now ignore 20% of your target's armor.

Gravity (1/1) - Reduces rage cost of all movement slowing effects by 1.

Rage Tier 6
Brutality (2/2) - Increases Force Scream crit chance by 10%

Dark Resonance (3/3) - Increases the crit damage of all Force attacks by 30%

Rage Tier 7
Force Crush (1/1) 15 yd range, progressively slows target from 80% to 10% over 8 seconds and deals kinetic damage at the end.

Notes:
Gravity should affect Force Crush and Ravage.

I skipped Shockwave, as I view it to be too situationally tied to Smash only, if it affected more skills then maybe. I am aware that Smashes after Force Charge become auto crits, but I prefer more regaining abilities so sacrifices are made in this build.

Immortal Tier 1
Echoing Scream (3/3) - Increases Force Scream damage by 15%.

Enraged Sunder (2/2) - Sundering Assault has a 100% chance to build 1 additional Rage ( Sundering Assault may be used alot by a Jugg depending on the effect of the Sunder armor stacks it applies to enemies)

Immortal Tier 2

Consuming Howl (2/2) -Force Scream has a 100% chance to heal you for 3% of your total health (MANDATORY imo w/ such a huge health pool of Jugg and a normally 12 sec cooldown that just went down to 9 seconds with above talents and a Rage cost of 2 instead of 4.

Vengence Tier 1
Decimate (3/3) - Increases Smash damage by 30% and lowers cooldown by 3 seconds. (Always increased damage to smash instead of after Shockwave only)

Notes on some abilities:
Force Scream - instant , 4 rage cost, 15 meter range, 12 sec cd
Blast the target with force enhanced scream dealing 401 to 419 kinetic damage, standard and weak enemies are forced to cover in fear, stunned for 4 seconds.

Unleash - instant ,no Rage cost, 2 min cd
Breaks all immobilisation and stun effects ( I love that has no cost, it isn't nearly as efficient as Force Scream, but for free it could be a life saver with Payback at some point, right when the enemy has you stunned and is beginning to burst you down, instead you break stun AND heal)

***As far as accuracy goes, I don't think that the Juggernaut will have accuracy issues because the Marauder gets a penalty and is supposed to be viable, if even the Jugg can't hit shit, then the Marauder is screwed. Basically, I'll do anything to get the Consuming Howl skill.

[neocoma]

Mhh, somehow I dont like being dependend from Force Scream that much as I dont know whether it stuns players, too or not. On top of that as it deals kinetic damage you want ( to go for every inch of dps) keep up sunder stacks. I found that annoying in wow, cant imagine it gets better in TOR

The other thing is smash ...again an ability which stuns enemies for 4 secs and again we dont know if it works on players.

But from a brief look at the sentinel talents (except the one that heals you for 2 % of max health with eatch critical dot tick) marauder doesnt seem to look promising at all considering its not existing survival talents.

So it looks like (and if juggs will have a huge pool of health) that juggs will most likely be more promising in pvp.

Besides ...anyone else feels that Force Choke shouldnt have a 1 min cd? I mean it's a channeling ...