Warrior PvP Discussion

[Poksu]

While talent building is all fun, what I'm wondering is if strength will really be a Rage specced warriors main stat. I mean almost all of the dmg from Rage tree are Force hits, which means kinetic? dmg. Someone said somewhere that kinetic dmg is affected by armor, so Shii-cho mastery is all good, but what about Single Saber mastery? If "melee damage" affects only autoattack, Assault, Ravage and Impale, it doesn't seem worth it for Rage warriors.

If anyone has SOLID info on what type of damages there are and what stat increases what type of dmg, I'd be a happy panda.

[Masterkiller]

There isn't an auto-attack like we see in WoW and other MMOs. If you don't hit a button, you just stand there.

They had originally stated that Strength would buff melee attacks and Willpower would buff Force attacks but have since changed it so each class has a primary stat that will increase both. So Strength for Warriors will buff both Melee and Force based attacks.

Referencing THIS post at reddit,

Quote:Disclaimer: This is a beta TEST. This is what Bioware wants us to test at the moment. This does not mean this is how it will be at launch.
The new build is live as of 2 nights ago.
Stats have been overhauled on the latest build to introduce the concept of a 'primary stat' for each base class. These are:
Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior: Strength Jedi Consular/Sith Inquisitor: Willpower Trooper/Bounty Hunter: Aim Smuggler/Imperial Agent: Cunning
In addition to each stat having its normal uses, the 'primary' stat of each class also increases all damage and healing for that class. This means Jedi Knights can use strength to increase the damage of their force abilites, or Sith Inquisitors can use Willpower to increase damage on their normal lightsabre attacks.
This means stats that are the primary stat of other classes are always less useful then your own classes' primary stat. For example, if I'm a Bounty Hunter there is no reason to take cunning. It only increases damage on tech attacks for BH's. Aim on the other hand increases damage on tech and normal attacks, by the same amount per point, so its flat out better for a BH.
Presence no longer increases healing, it is now used only to increase companion effectiveness. (It may be considered a secondary stat now because it doesn't seem to appear on any low-mid level gear I've found) Healing is instead now increased by each classes' primary stat. Endurance is unchanged, it still increases health for all classes in the same way.
Customization comes into play with various specific ratings that work similarly to wow. They are trying to avoid flat out calling them things like "Crit rating" and instead give them real names, for example "Surge" increases the amount of bonus damage/healing your critical attacks and heals do. There is also a new Expertise stat that effects only pvp. (Understatement: It appears people have opinions on this. )
The net effect though, is you will have to choose between secondary stats like +power vrs +crit or +hit, etc.. rather then having to choose between primary stats like aim or cunning.
The good news is there will be less fighting over loot because nothing you can use is of any use to any other base class. Its also easier on healers because they can focus on their primary stat without gimping their damage. I assume (But don't know because I don't play a tank) that their will be abilites/talents that use the tank's primary stat to improve tanking ability.
The downside is less customization and less choices earily on until you get to the point where ratings start appearing. Its also a bit un-inituitive for BH/Trooper to use Aim to increase healing, but then BHs heal people by shooting rockets at them so its not exactly rational to begin with.
Overall, I like the new system more then the old one. Its an overall dps increase for me since I'm a healer. It benefits other classes as well, though. For example, your force choke will do more damage as your strength increases for Sith warriors, no more worrying about your willpower stat. By simplifying the primary stats, it lets you focus more on what you want your secondary stats to be. This is especally nice with how most equipment is modular now.
At the moment I am working on getting back to where I was last build, I'm at level 14 right now but plan to spend every waking moment this weekend playing, so I hope to have some mid to high level info for you all soon. They ended up not wiping old characters with this new build but things are a bit glitchy and older characters had their appearances randomly changed due to changes in the character creation options, so I started over.
tl;dr: They added expertise, the game is ruined forever.

[Sennin]

"Unstoppable" build--A work in progress that will need to be tweaked as we get info

Group PvP-Only Juggernaut (29 Rage/12 Vengeance)
http://www.war-tools.com/t73213.html?b=9...2201020130

Overview of build:
I really love the synergies of the Rage tree, homing missile attacks, reduced costs and cooldowns. This build is an anti-kiting build with Force Charge / Smash / Obliterate and Unstoppable at its heart. I can't get over the undeniable power that is Unstoppable from Vengeance. With this build, I want you to run...

Advantages of build:
-Great against kiting meatbags, which I perceive to be the biggest threat against melee
-Uses balance Shii-Cho form for a host of benefits:

• 20% Armor penetration for all attacks (which is a more general damage buff to all skills, rather than to one in particular)
• Reduced cooldowns of force abilities by 3 seconds
• Reduced cost of Force Scream (now costs 2 rage instead of 4)
• Gain 1 rage when attacked (limit once every 6 seconds)
  

-Uninterruptible Ravage...(a 3 sec channel, but big hitter)
-Unstoppable!
-Force Charge now immobilizes for 3 seconds (instead of 2), sets up your bigger hits and increases DR and gives immunity to deliver them unmolested for 4 seconds.
-Big survivability boost over a standard Rage build (check out explanation below)

Disadvantages/Tradeoffs:
-Loss of a DOT snare in Force Crush
-No Force Crush (concerns about it being negated by snare break abilities due to snare component, as well as wish it wasn't kinetic damage type)
-Lowers Smash burst damage without Shockwave (tick mechanics concerns still unknown, more in-depth explanation in this THREAD)
-Build does not try to enhance Sundering Assault ability (don't see people standing still for very long and I want to hit them with bigger hitters with the limited time I have them stationary)

Some ability specifics to help paint a picture:
Force Charge (with talents in build)
Instant
Cooldown: 12 secs (showing 3 sec reduced cooldown from Shii-Cho)
Range: 10-30m
Jumps to a distant target, dealing 129-147 damage with the main hand weapon, immobilizing the target for 2 seconds, and interrupting the target's current action. Builds 3 rage. Cannot be used against targets in cover.

Unstoppable (2/2)
Force Charge has a 100% chance to grant Unstoppable, reducing all damage taken by 20% and granting immunity to stuns, physics, and movement impairing effects for 4 seconds. (Unstoppable is essentially a half-effectiveness Invincible
(from Tier 7 Immortal but with alot more uptime and cc immunities)

For those that think Unstoppable isn't worth the sacrifice of a Tier 7 skill:
Let's compare their uptime to show what I mean and create an effectiveness rating. (Anubis forgive me).

Method:Divide their duration by their by their cooldown, and then we'll divide the result for Unstoppable in half because it has half the % damage reduction.

Invincible @ 40% DR = 10 secs duration / 180 secs cd = 0.056

Unstoppable @ 20% DR = (4 seconds / 12 seconds cd) / 2 = 0.17
OR assuming that no talents can reduce Force Charge from its original CD of 15 seconds.
Unstoppable @ 20% DR = (4 seconds / 15 seconds cd) / 2 = 0.13

So at the least, Unstoppable seems more than twice as effective as THE Tier 7 Immortal tanking skill, or in the best case Unstoppable seems more than 3 times as effective.

EDIT: Anubis helped with some math to illustrate the Damage Reduction per second concept better (he also advised to take these #'s with a grain of salt)

Quote:

Showing that Unstoppable provides 2.4 times more DRPS than Invincible.

And that's not even including the CC immunities involved. That's how good Unstoppable seems to be.

Combos / Scenarios:**(Still need detailed info on Juggernaut abilities)
First off, hit Berserk as soon as you see and are closing with the enemy 50+ meters so you can get that 2 min cd counting sooner and so you can go into a rage dump and burst someone down right from the start if opportunity presents instead of waiting for some other rage builders. (Nets you 7 rage over 6 seconds, instead of 5 rage w/o talents)

IE. Force Charge (+3)-> Smash (-3)auto crit-> Ravage (no cost)-> Target runs -> Force Choke (+3)-> Force Scream (-2)-> Saber Throw (+3)-> Obliterate (-3) -> and so on.

**Definitely need to consolidate this section with other post of mine in this thread somehow

In-depth Talent Selection Rationale:**Still coming
I went way up into Rage to maintain what I perceive to be most burst and mobility possible for a larger number of fluid PvP scenarios (not arena), while at the same time sneaking into the Vengeance tree to pick up Unstoppable (which seems to add an insane amount of survivability through damage reduction and cc immunity).


Important questions/assumptions:
1. What abilities are considered melee attacks/which are considered force attacks?
2. Need information on the Juggernaut-only trainer abilities, to get detailed info about abilities like Impale, etc.
3. Does Shii-Cho armor penetration (20%) affect ALL attacks or just melee/saber?
4. Can Force Crush be canceled by the many snare break abilities? If so, bad news for Force Crush, or even Rupture for Marauders (if someone specs to add snare component to it).
5. How does Force Crush and Force Choke tick?
6. How long will it take for Unstoppable to be moved very high into Vengeance Tree and make this build impossible? $64,000 for that one

I'm so torn between AC's, but don't anyone jump off a cliff yet thinking you need to be a Marauder for PvP. While I love Dual Wield to death and the looks of Marauder, I think this Juggernaut will be insane at burst/near unkitable and be much much tougher to kill than a Marauder.

[Poksu]

I'd expect them to force (heha) you to take the tier 7 talent before you're allowed to touch the other trees. Balancing the game for hybrid specs is just a nightmare. You could do some insane Smash-build by combining Ruin & Decimate from Vengeance to Dominate & Shockwave from Rage.

I'm going Jugg for shure, but I'm curious to see how the different talent trees play out in pvp. The single reason to go Rage is ofc Obliterate, but Vengeance has so much other neat stuff. I just love Unstoppable & Huddle. Could be that the only possible way to solokill anything is Rage, but as Vengeance group up with a healer and you can keep the both of you alive and do massive dmg. Impale & Shatter as Vengeance specced sounds like a world of hurt

[neocoma]

Well atm there are allowing hybrid specs, even triple specs like 11/17/something. From my POV it's a good thing because IF they force us to spend 31 points in one tree and not allowing dual spec, every jugg pvper will run Rage build. There is absolutely NO variety then and that is sooo boring!

[Alratan]

I would expect them not to take that route Poksu, at least not yet, as they seem to not want to go down WoW's homogenisation root at present.

[Poksu]

Well I disagree. As I just said, Vengeance could play out very well in pvp. Even Immortal has some clear pvp talents. You can't say every jugg will go Rage for pvp. To me, Vengeance seems much more suited for group pvp, which competitive pvp is all about.

And sure hybrid specs are more exciting and fun to build, but cherry picking talents just leads to an endless stream of patches and classes of the week. I'd rather concentrate on who's the most skilled player than who happens to play the class of the week. WoW even created it's own term for this; "fotm": flavor/faceroller of the month.
I expect them to learn from all the mistakes WoW did and make SW:TOR near perfect at launch

[neocoma]

And I hope they keep it that way. Hybrids ftw.

Okay I tried a Smash Build, but then found out that its potential is not fully achieved due to the lack of force crush in that spec. So I checked my SW skill vid again and found out that Force Scream got a 12 sec cd right now and costs 4 rage. Dealing kinetic damage as we all know ...

So I tried to figure out a Force Scream Build ...Let's just give it a fancy name and call it
Banshee Build or something.

Note that this spec is focissing on supporting FS as much as possible. Unfortunately you luck other nice stuff. So here we go:

http://www.war-tools.com/t73213.html?b=9...012112201g

Basically you get base damage increase, Rage cost reduction and CD reduction by 6 secs which lets you scream every 6 secs so far. But you lack Force critical damage and armor penetration while in schii-cho form. So with this build you can scream every 6 secs for only 2 rage. It's not yet clear whether this spec is viable or not due to its flaws but at least it's fun to play with and look what you can do with abilities so far

[Pantelijus]

Hybrid builds arent viable in SWTOR tbh

Higher tier talents are just too powerfull/usefull to be ignored for some weak stuff that doesnt have 100% uptime.

In theory or on paper hybrid builds may look great but in reality u will feel gimped

Jack of all trades, master of none

[Poksu]

What I'd like a confirmation on, is regarding the terms "standard and weak enemies" and "The target". What I've understood, "standard and weak enemies" are NPC's? Either your companion or just some lowly monsters. Skills that just say "the target" means they affect players in pvp?

For example:

Smash
Instant
Rage: 3
Cooldown: 15 secs
Smashes up to 5 nearby enemies for 174 – 201 kinetic damage. Also stuns weak and standard enemies for 1.5 seconds.

doesn't stun players, but:

Force Choke
Channeled: 3 secs
Cooldown: 1 min
Range: 15m
Chokes the target, crushing and stunning it while the ability is channelled, and dealing 117 kinetic damage every second. Builds 1 rage per second.

does?