Warrior PvP Discussion

[Sennin]

(08-29-2011 05:15 PM)Sol Wrote:  Especially if you get stunned during gore. You'll be wanting to get all 3 abilities off during that 6 secs otherwise you might find yourself on the back foot again if the class can reliably self heal. I know as a Jugg I'll be keeping my force scream heal in anticipation for gore, in addition to trying to kite them if possible. I only need a moment of intermittent server lag to get a miss during gore. Sucks to think like that but as an Aussie i'll be lucky to run with a 250MS so I'll do what I can to use it to my advantage.

Yea, I agree with the reservations about Gore's duration. I think Carnage will be good, but I think Rage will be better in more situations (ranged attackers/being snared more often, vs high interrupt builds. I admit I love the idea of popping Gore, then Ravaging someone.

Until now I hadn't even thought of lag because of the smooth demos we've seen so far, but once I factor in distance lag or spending a large amount of time snared as a melee class in PvP, I would definitely go Rage for the extra mobility. Melee classes are hard to manage with high lag and I prefer a ranged in those situations.

But the Rage tree adds Obliterate, which turns any Jugg/Marauder into a homing missile of death, even while snared. As a comparison, look at the damage of Obliterate vs Annihilate (the Tier 7 ability from Annihilation tree of Marauder). The damage of Obliterate (Tier 3)is on par with a Tier 7 damage ability, and not only costs less rage but has greater range and is an instant homing missile on a target (go ahead and snare me). Yea, Obliterate can't be used on targets in cover, but that's what I have RAVAGE for....

Obliterate
Instant
Rage: 3
Cooldown: 15 secs
Range: 15m
Jumps to a target impaling it for 546-622 weapon damage. Strikes with both lightsabers if dual wielding. Cannot be used against targets in cover.

Annihilate
Instant
Rage: 5
Cooldown: 12 secs
Range: 4m
Strikes the target with both sabers for 578-633 weapon damage. Each use of this ability grants Annihilator for 15 seconds, lowering the cooldown of your next Annihilate by 1.5 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times. Requires two lightsabers.

For PvP, while still undecided whether I go Jugg or Marauder, I am definitely going Rage Tree. While no Gore, I would have 20% armor piercing all the time, and the Shii-Cho form is a good balance of offense and defense, and lowers alot of my force cooldowns (I'm hoping this at least means anything with "Force" in the name, ie Force Charge, Choke, and Scream). Ravage (3 sec channel) becomes uninterruptible....

I recommend Rage tree, especially for anyone who anticipates lag.

My PvP Marauder:
http://www.war-tools.com/t73173.html?b=9...2201120231
For any Marauder, Dual Wield Mastery and Defensive Roll...a must.

***EDIT:

Removed my PvP Juggernaut due to new build talent positions (ie Consuming Howl to Tier 5)
However, working on a Rage/Vengeance hybrid that I normally wouldn't endorse, but in this case I think will work well for PvP environment.

[guardian17]

I think damage numbers need to be ignored, it really is impossible to compare the damage of different abilities at this point because little to no balancing has been done, and the abilities could be from different levels.

It appears that every class has a shared tree which serves as the primary "PVP tree". In a video a while back, a dev mentioned that all classes will have a tree which is best for pvp, but that every tree will still be pvp viable.

It does appear as if the Rage/Focus tree is geared towards PVP with its emphasis on ranged attacks and mobility. All trees definitely look PVP viable. One issue which comes to mind is that rage/focus specd warrior/jedis will need alot of willpower to increase their damage because of their reliance on force attacks.

A second issue I see for rage/focus spec warrior/jedis is their inability to kite hardcore melee classes outside of force exhaustion. Can a rage/focus warrior/jedi stand toe to toe with an annihilation or vegeance warrior? These remain to be answered.

[Sol]

[/quote]

Sennin Wrote:But the Rage tree adds Obliterate, which turns any Jugg/Marauder into a homing missile of death, even while snared. As a comparison, look at the damage of Obliterate vs Annihilate (the Tier 7 ability from Annihilation tree of Marauder). The damage of Obliterate (Tier 3)is on par with a Tier 7 damage ability, and not only costs less rage but has greater range and is an instant homing missile on a target (go ahead and snare me). Yea, Obliterate can't be used on targets in cover, but that's what I have RAVAGE for....

Yeah Obliterate is a great ability that hits extremely hard for a gap closer. I'm going to love using this espcially after I chain Force choke (shockwave x 3), obliterate, smash crit at 200% damage...watch the health bar drop at terminal velocity.

I was also at a loss whether to go Jugg or Maurader (which looks fun as hell for PvE), however I just can't see Maurader being as effective in solo play due to their average self heal that relies on crits in addition to medium armour and 1 defensive CD every 3 mins that only lasts 6 sec.. The Juggernaut is going to be more flexible I think, so I'm heading in that direction first... I guarantee that I level both though!!

Guardian17 Wrote:I think damage numbers need to be ignored, it really is impossible to compare the damage of different abilities at this point because little to no balancing has been done, and the abilities could be from different levels.

I disagree sorry. Sure there might be some movement in numbers but essentially the class design will remain the same with a few tweaks. They already nerfed our Force Choke as it was too powerful and would have applied more nerfs if they thought it was appropriate as the upcoming beta weekend is the best testing ground they'll get due to higher numbers.

While I agree nothing is guaranteed, I certainly think that we can use the current information, considering it was leaked in betacake in the last few days as indicators of what our abilities will be like.

Guardian17 Wrote:A second issue I see for rage/focus spec warrior/jedis is their inability to kite hardcore melee classes outside of force exhaustion. Can a rage/focus warrior/jedi stand toe to toe with an annihilation or vegeance warrior? These remain to be answered.

I'm also wondering if this will be the case, however I'm inclined to believe that we will as have access to a self heal every force scream (which timed right can really take the wind out of a good burst), stuns to interrupt gore phases and can also obliterate/force charge to nearby enemies to futher ctreate more movement/distance. Intercept can also use used in the same fashion to an ally. Of all the specs the Rage has the greatest mobility and when a Jugg specs into Immortal for heals and -10% accuracy debuff has the best survivability. That is why I will be rolling Jugg Rage and not Marauder rage to start off with.

[guardian17]

They moved the 3% heal from force scream talent in the immortal spec to like 5th tier or higher. Rage spec warrriors only have access to the 10% health from unleash now.

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Also, all the listed ability damage numbers displayed change based upon your gear, level, and some are even bugged and say 0 damage. There is no way to know if you are comparing apples to apples when you are comparing damage numbers shown between abilities at this point in beta leaks.

[Sol]

(08-30-2011 01:22 PM)guardian17 Wrote:  They moved the 3% heal from force scream talent in the immortal spec to like 5th tier or higher. Rage spec warrriors only have access to the 10% health from unleash now.

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Also, all the listed ability damage numbers displayed change based upon your gear, level, and some are even bugged and say 0 damage. There is no way to know if you are comparing apples to apples when you are comparing damage numbers shown between abilities at this point in beta leaks.

Can I ask when that changed? And if you have access to more information can you please post it in the forums for us to use with a reference to the source. If this is the case then that really does change the scenario quite a lot. It seems now that it will come down to a burn race, which sucks as that isn't the style of class I want to play. I was hoping the Jugg was an arms warrior with a small Death Strike ability to allow for rolling combat.

Also I still think we can use those numbers and make some basic assumptions as to the level of damage an ability may have in comparison to another ability. Even if they have gear equiped, unless it is an X% of weapon damage ability then the abilities will generally scale together through the levels and we can use the figures shown to see the scale of damage from one ability relative to another. Of course this only applies if the abilities shown are all taken from the same person, wearing the same gear at the same level. While I totally agree nothing is 100% and these abilities could be wrong, I also see nothing wrong with making the assumptions as the sacle of the damage of abilities relative to one another through various leaks has changed very little. Usually only talent placement and CD's have changed recently.

[neocoma]

latest jugg tree on alterswtor to look it up.

and yeah it sucks ...Yesterday I though of a hybrid build mainly focussing Immortal and Rage.

But I think what I've been looking for isnt achievable at all

Wanted to gor for obliterate and fill the rest up in Immortal to pick 3 sec no channel force choke and other nice stuff.

On top of that for PvP only, how about this opener:

Use saber throw and immediatly force charge your target, should give you 6 rage if I'm correct. you could then force choke ( and hope he wont break it) and as an Immortal, as it is no channeling anymore use the 3 sec choke to pull of Ravage I believe (3 sec channel melee hit thing). Then Force push and obliterate and see what he got left.

[guardian17]

(08-31-2011 07:34 AM)neocoma Wrote:  latest jugg tree on alterswtor to look it up.

and yeah it sucks ...Yesterday I though of a hybrid build mainly focussing Immortal and Rage.

But I think what I've been looking for isnt achievable at all

Wanted to gor for obliterate and fill the rest up in Immortal to pick 3 sec no channel force choke and other nice stuff.

On top of that for PvP only, how about this opener:

Use saber throw and immediatly force charge your target, should give you 6 rage if I'm correct. you could then force choke ( and hope he wont break it) and as an Immortal, as it is no channeling anymore use the 3 sec choke to pull of Ravage I believe (3 sec channel melee hit thing). Then Force push and obliterate and see what he got left.

Is saber throw off the global cooldown? If it isn't that opener is going to delay your force charge by 1.5 seconds, which may or may not be a big deal. Other then that, your combo looks excellent.

As a rage/focus spec warrior, my guess is that the strongest opener will be force charge ------> (ravage/masterstrike)

The reason for this is that it will probably be best to use ravage while the target is still immobilized by your force charge. Force choke would best be used outside of the opener, to prevent kiting, build additional rage, cc, and do heavy damage. Force Choke is also going to be useful in situations where you cant get the charge off.

Standard Opener: 0 Force Charge ---> 1.5 Ravage -------------------------------------> 4.5 Berserk + Force Crush ---> 6 Battering/Sundering Assault -----> 7.5 Smash -------> 9 Force Scream
Alternate Opener: 0 Force Charge ---> 1.5 Berserk + Force Crush ---> 3 Ravage ---------------------------------------> 6 Smash --------------------------- > 7.5 SndAssault ---> 9 Force Scream
Denied Charge: 0 Force Choke ----------------------> 3 Berserk + Force Crush ---> 4.5 Obliterate ------------------>6 Smash --------------------------- > 7.5 SndAssault ---> 9 Force Scream

After this opener I will likely use Force Choke and then use whatever abilities fit the scenario.

Notable combos with high synergy:

1. Force Charge into Ravage

2. Obliterate into Smash

3. Force Choke into Obliterate into Smash

4. Force Crush into Obliterate into Smash

Also, the first two tiers of the vengeance/vigilance tree for juggernaut/guardian has extremely good pvp talents. I believe that the best spec for pvp will be 31 Rage 10 Vengeance.

[Sol]

(08-31-2011 07:55 AM)guardian17 Wrote:  My opener will likely be something like this: Force Charge ----> Ravage -----> Berserk + Force Exhaustion -----> Battering Assault ------> Obliterate ------> Smash -------> Bladestorm

Against a Kiting Class my opener will be similar: Force Charge ----> Ravage -----> Berserk + Force Exhaustion -----> Obliterate ------> Battering Assault ------> Smash -------> Bladestorm

After this opener I will likely use Force Choke and then use whatever abilities fit the scenario.

Notable combos with high synergy:

1. Force Charge into Ravage

2. Obliterate into Smash

3. Force Choke into Obliterate into Smash

4. Force Exhaustion into Obliterate into Smash

Also, the first two tiers of the vengeance/vigilance tree for juggernaut/guardian has extremely good pvp talents. I believe that the best spec for pvp will be 31 Rage 10 Vengeance.

This is what I was thinking although are you mixing abilities with the guardian's? I’m going to assume that force Exhaustion = Force Crush, Battering Assault = Sundering Assault (Juggernaut’s Assault) and Bladestorm = Force Scream.

If that is the case then yes my opener will look pretty much like this. I’m definitely going to be using Force Choke for shockwave, Obliterate, ravage (if I can reliably get it off), insta crit Smash @ 200% damage, Impale, Vicious throw as my finishing sequence. And I still have Sabre Throw & Force Scream (especially for kiting classes) if somehow this doesn’t finish off an opponent.

As they have moved Consuming Howl I’m now maybe looking to roll a Marauder for the simple reason that they too get access to the Rage tree and all its benefits, as well as Annihilation and Carnage, both of which look nice for pvp as well and offer more varied game play.

[guardian17]

(08-31-2011 09:34 AM)Sol Wrote:  This is what I was thinking although are you mixing abilities with the guardian's? I’m going to assume that force Exhaustion = Force Crush, Battering Assault = Sundering Assault (Juggernaut’s Assault) and Bladestorm = Force Scream.

If that is the case then yes my opener will look pretty much like this. I’m definitely going to be using Force Choke for shockwave, Obliterate, ravage (if I can reliably get it off), insta crit Smash @ 200% damage, Impale, Vicious throw as my finishing sequence. And I still have Sabre Throw & Force Scream (especially for kiting classes) if somehow this doesn’t finish off an opponent.

As they have moved Consuming Howl I’m now maybe looking to roll a Marauder for the simple reason that they too get access to the Rage tree and all its benefits, as well as Annihilation and Carnage, both of which look nice for pvp as well and offer more varied game play.

Yes I intertwined the two: Sith and Jedi. I will edit to make the abilities all the sith version so its easier to understand.

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The first two tiers of the Vengeance tree seem to be stronger for pvp then any other offspec. With 31 Rage 10 Vengeance you get all of Rage + 6% more Saber Damage, 30% more smash damage (Smash is probably going to be Rages hardest hitting burst ability), +4 rage when stunned, slept, or knocked back (all extremely common in pvp), and +2% more strength (our primary stat).

No other offspec even comes close to comparing to the first two tiers of vengeance for PVP.

[neocoma]

(08-31-2011 07:55 AM)guardian17 Wrote:  Notable combos with high synergy:

1. Force Charge into Ravage

2. Obliterate into Smash

3. Force Choke into Obliterate into Smash

4. Force Crush into Obliterate into Smash

Does 1. work rage wise? Thats why I picked the LS throw/charge combo to gain more rage for the fight.

3 and 4 when pooled enough rage can be expanded by Force Scream. It's instant

Besides ...anyone considered to sunder the target before starting the fight and blowing cds? Would be 40% armor ignore at all after applying 4 stacks. Does sundering generate rage? Damn I'm too lazy to look up the spells over and over again :/