Carnage | Discipline Discussion

[Pill]

I picked up Gravity Wave Device tonight and was wondering which one of my current Relic's I should replace it with. My Current Relic's are Rakata Relic of Imperiling Serenity [Exceptional] (+28 power in the Augment slot) and Matrix Cube M7-G0.

Or are my current Relic's better.

Thanks in advance.

[Angriff]

Has anyone noticed since 1.1.5 if they fixed the issue with Ataru strikes not proccing correctly on mobs with large hit boxes? I'd love to go back Carnage, but I've been playing Annihilation lately just because I'd rather not have to stand in between the legs of Operation bosses. It really sucks either having to be Annihilation or having to attack Operation bosses while standing literally in between their legs.

[iddqd]

Two questions that bother me and i couldn't find anything satisfying on these forums:

- do i use Force Stasis / Force Choke when Combat / Carnage specced for generating focus / rage instead of Strike / Assault or is the former the better focus generator (could proc an Ataru strike) and i use Force Stasis / Force Choke only for CC?

- after Precision Slash / Gore, if no Zen / Berserk is available, do i use Master Strike / Ravage or any focus / rage spenders for best dps?

Thanks!

[Ezmode]

LagunaD's calculations, along with a bit of my own, does show that Force Choke/Force Stasis is better than Assault/Strike.

After Gore/Precision Slash, priority goes Ravage/Master Strike, Force Scream/Blade Storm, then Massacre/Blade Rush.

[LagunaD]

So, I have a working simulator now.

The best priority I've found for Combat/Carnage so far is:

1) Zen/Berserk
2) Precision Slash/Gore
3) Blade Storm/Force Scream (if Combat Trance/Blood Frenzy up)
4) Blade Rush/Massacre (if no Combat Trance/Blood Frenzy and/or no Blade Rush/Massacre buff)
5) Zealous Strike/Battering Assault
6) Blade Rush/Massacre
7) Master Strike/Ravage (if not Zen/Berserk)
8) Force Stasis/Force Choke (if not Zen/Berserk)
9) Strike/Assault

Basically the idea is to keep Combat Trance/Blood Frenzy and Blade Rush/Massacre buffs up as much as possible, to use Blade Storm/Force Scream when it will auto-crit (obviously), and to keep Zealous Strike on cooldown.

I tried putting Master Strike/Ravage after Gore if the Gore buff was up, but it was slightly (3-4 DPS) worse.

The stat weights from the full simulation are virtually identical to those from the spreadsheet, by the way, and the simulation also says Combat/Carnage and Watchman/Annihilation are essentially equal in DPS (within a few points) with appropriate gear and priorities.

[iddqd]

Would be nice if you could elaborate how to act after Precision Slash / Gore is cast. EG in my opinion, within Zen, it could be better to use Force Stasis / Force Choke instead of Strike / Assault, if you assure the Zen will not run out before all stacks are used.
Additionally, i can't image (but can be all wrong on this one) that using Zealous Strike / Battering Assault under the ArmorPen buff is better than Blade Rush / Massacre (with the buff present), if you have enough focus points to cover the whole Precision Slash / Gore buff with focus spenders.

[LagunaD]

(03-21-2012 09:39 PM)iddqd Wrote:  Would be nice if you could elaborate how to act after Precision Slash / Gore is cast. EG in my opinion, within Zen, it could be better to use Force Stasis / Force Choke instead of Strike / Assault, if you assure the Zen will not run out before all stacks are used.

Force Stasis is worse under Zen. There's a post somewhere back in the thread where I worked out why, but in a nutshell:

Without Zen, Force Stasis buys you 1.5 Blade Rush in 3 seconds, and Strike buys you 2 Blade Rush in 3 seconds. But the extra damage from Force Stasis makes up for the difference, and a little more.

With Zen, Force Stasis buys you 3 Blade Rush in 3 seconds, while Strike buys you 4 Blade Rush in 3 seconds. Basically Zen doubles the value of regen, but doesn't change the damage differential between Stasis and Strike. So under Zen, Strike comes out a bit ahead of Stasis.

(03-21-2012 09:39 PM)iddqd Wrote:  Additionally, i can't image (but can be all wrong on this one) that using Zealous Strike / Battering Assault under the ArmorPen buff is better than Blade Rush / Massacre (with the buff present), if you have enough focus points to cover the whole Precision Slash / Gore buff with focus spenders.

That's arguable, and worth checking with the simulator. But delaying Zealous Strike every time the armor debuff is up will mean you have less resources overall, so it isn't a no-brainer. This is the sort of question a simulator can address, so I'll follow-up on it.

Edit:

OK, so I tried running the sim with the priorities I listed above, and with the modification suggested by iddqd. I put a condition (no armor pen buff) on the Zealous Strike in my original list, and then inserted a second (unconditional) Zealous Strike at lower priority.

Basically, if you put Blade Rush, Master Strike and Force Stasis above Zealous while the armor buff is up (meaning the new, unconditional Zealous Strike is at 8.5 on my original list), it is a few points worse than my original list (the statistical error on my sims was about +/- 0.22 DPS, so a few points is statistically significant).

If you put Blade Rush and Master Strike, but not Force Stasis, above Zealous while the armor buff is up (so the unconditional Zealous is at 7.5 on my original list), it is still worse, but now only like 2 points.

And if you put only Blade Rush above Zealous while the armor buff is up (unconditional Zealous at position 6.5 on my original list), it is basically indisinguishable (my original list still came out a fraction of a point ahead, but it's almost within the statistical error).

We are talking about a maximum difference of about 0.3% here, so it's not a big deal no matter how you slice it...

[LagunaD]

On a different subject, what are peoples' thoughts on the 1.2 changes to Combat/Carnage?

Here's my take, based solely on reading the patch notes:

1) A few nice bug fixes and quality of life stuff:
a) Ataru hits large targets
b) No focus cost for Awe/Force Kick/Pacify, and Pacify off the GCD
c) Master Strike uninterruptible
d) Force Camo gives us yet ANOTHER defensive cooldown
e) Cyclone Slash is apparently free when Zen is up

2) Ataru does weapon damage

This one has me a bit nervous. I interpret the patch notes and the Test Server client files to mean it is now a melee attack, which implies it can be avoided. It also means it won't benefit from the +6% Critical Chance buff from Insight (more on that below).

According to the patch notes, it does "10% more damage overall," but the numbers from the test server client files concern me:

On the live server, Level 50 Ataru (without the 30% buff from Ataru Mastery) does:

54.7 + 0.343*(Force Bonus)

On the test server, it does:

56.5 + 0.351*(Melee Bonus) + 0.11*(Main-hand)

For my Sentinel, who is not that well geared, with group buffs that translates to:

Live: 54.7 + 0.343*(676.7) = 286.8 (average)
1.2: 56.5 + 0.351*(382.4) + 0.11*(347.5) = 228.9 (average)

That does not look like "10% more damage overall".

It would be about 10% more if it used our Force damage bonus, but it is a melee attack now. Unless they have somehow changed the mechanics so that a weapon-based attack uses the Force damage bonus, this is a huge (20%) nerf, being misrepresented as a buff.

And on top of that, it is losing the 6% critical chance buff from Insight, which with typical 75% critical damage bonus, is another 4.5% nerf. So it is about a 25% nerf to Ataru damage overall, and Ataru makes up something like 18% of our total damage. So at first glance, it is a 4-5% overall nerf to Combat/Carnage.

I am going to post about this on the official forums, because it is a pretty big deal.

3) Off-spec skills

This is one interesting area of the changes. Based on what the notes say, there are a number of changes to Tier 1 skills in Watchman and Focus:

1) Valor (+2 Centering per force spender, -30s c/d on Valorous Call) is now T1 Watchman.

2) Master Focus (T1 Focus tree) now increases the damage of Master Strike instead of lowering the c/d on Force Stasis.

3) Swelling Winds is now T1 Focus, and increases the damage of Cyclone Slash as well as Force Sweep.

4) With Ataru now being a melee attack, Insight (T1 Focus, +6% Force Critical Chance) becomes rather less interesting. Blade Storm should normally be 100% critical chance anyway, meaning this skill doesn't do much anymore.

Focused Slash and Valor (5 pts in T1 Watchman) both look mandatory. Focused Slash is a no-brainer, and Valor will more than double our Zen rate. Master Focus (2 pts in T1 Focus) we probably already have, but it buffs Master Strike damage now, which is nice. So that leaves 3 points (which used to be in Insight) to split between Swelling Winds and/or Quick Recovery - both of which are basically AoE buffs. I would lean toward keeping 2 points in Quick Recovery (which I have now), and putting 1 point into Swelling Winds. With 2/2 Quick Recovery, Cyclone Slash will be cost-free (and 1s GCD) with Zen up.

Edit: My observations about Ataru form are now posted on the PTS forum, here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=371763. Please feel free to bump...

Edit 2: Several threads on the official forums are saying that Quick Recovery has been removed. If so, then 3/3 Focused Slash, 2/2 Valor, 2/2 Master Focus and 3/3 Swelling Winds is probably the way to go.

[Pantelijus]

Honestly Carnage will still be behind Rage and Annihilation after 1.2

I played Carnage for solid 2 months before switching to Annihilation and never looked back because Carnage atm is undertuned and for some reason BioWare thinks the spec is "fine"

Problems of Carnage:

1. Rage generation compared to Annihilation is laughable and the Battering Assault nerf from the late beta (1 week before open beta weekend) which went from 4 rage every 4.5 sec to 6 rage every 12 seconds just made it worse , buffing Enraged Assault talent to give 6 seconds reduction on Battering Assault cd is path in the right direction (buffing Blood Frenzy to give 2 rage instead of 1 at the end of duration could work aswell)

2. Overall damage of abilities such as Massacre,Gore,Force Scream compared to other specs. Massacre hits for less than Vicious Slash , Gore hits for less than Massacre itself (which for ability with 15 sec cd is stupid) , Force Scream without the Blood Frenzy(Towering Rage) and Execute is pathetic. Possible solution is to buff Gore damage to reasonable amount for its cd , Massacre damage increased by solid amount aswell.

3. Carnage spec is too much centered around Ataru Form which with bad/semi-usefull supporting talents drags the spec down. Ataru Form damage is too low considering its mitigated by armor (tooltip for Ataru Form was something like 314 in my gear before i respeced to Annihilation). Ataru Form damage should be increased by solid amount (50-100% and if it proves too powerfull make it unable to crit) and some supporting talents changed to be less RNG and more usefull (example of Execute having 100% to proc and giving 10-20% damage boost to next Gore or Force Scream , said Execute talent having a 4.5 - 6 second cd)

I find it ironic that sustained damage spec(Annihilation) has more burst and burst capabilities than "official" burst spec(Carnage)

In 1.2 Annihilation and Rage got some very nice buffs while Carnage got a bug fix and some minor change so nothing to be excited about (on Carnage)

[LagunaD]

(03-22-2012 02:33 AM)Pantelijus Wrote:  Honestly Carnage will still be behind Rage and Annihilation after 1.2

What is your evidence that Carnage is "behind" Annihilation now? How have you measured the DPS under controlled conditions?

I have a full combat simulation, and the two specs are within (literally) a few points of each other, for comparable gear levels.

As to your other points:

1) I find I rarely have resource issues. And I don't see how Watchman has much of an advantage here.

Watchman: 30% chance for 1 regen on DoT ticks. Against a single target, Cauterize ticks at least 24 times per minute, possibly more if the cooldown is reset. Overload Saber can tick 25 times per minute. At 49 ticks per minute, with the internal cooldown, that's an average of 10.75 procs per minute. Best case, if Cauterize c/d resets every 6 seconds (which is wildly optimistic), it's 15.6 procs per minute (hence 15.6 regen per minute).

Combat: 10 Combat Trance procs per minute is theoretically possible, and it's not hard to get close to that in practice, plus you get 5 Zealous Strikes per minute instead of 4, so that's another 6 resources per minute.

So we are looking at 16 extra regen/minute ideally with Combat, vs. 15.6 extra regen/minute with Watchman. Further, Combat doesn't have any abilities that cost 5 resources, and they also get more mileage out of Focused Slash since they tend to spam Blade Rush a lot more than Watchman spams Slash and Merciless Slash. Finally, Combat gets additional cost savings (roughly 6 resources per minute) from Zen.

So, not seeing any advantage at all for Watchman here, much less how Combat is "laughable" in comparison.

2. Massacre does not hit for less than Vicious Slash when you include the automatic Ataru, and it gets better when you also account for the +30% proc buff which should have 100% uptime, and the Blood Frenzy regen. The primary purpose of Gore is to give yourself a 100% armor penetration buff. You may be the first person I've encountered who thinks Gore is weak... Force Scream should obviously not be used without the auto-crit buff (which you can refresh at will). Not many people would consider 3K+ hits every 9 seconds "pathetic".

3. The tooltip for Ataru Form is bugged, like the tooltips for all skill-granted abilities. Ataru does about 40 points more damage than the tooltip indicates, and will be landing upwards of 30 times a minute if you keep the proc buff stacked.