Carnage | Discipline Discussion

[gtdef]

What I used while carnage is this.

Charge 3
Rupture 1
Battering Assault 7
Massacre 5
Gore 2
Ravage 2
Force Scream 0
Blood Frenzy ends 1
Assault 3
Massacre 1
Battering Assault 7 (this is standard, I will do it every time, then depends on what you are facing)
-----
Massacre 5
Scream 3
Blood Frenzy ends 4
Execute 1

Or

Force choke 10
Massacre 8
Assault 10
Pop berserk
Gore 7
Massacre till 0 rage with one force scream in between, preferably the one that procs executioner.
Get at 10 meters, repeat without ravage. Next time ravage will be off cooldown, so you repeat with ravage.

When I solo elites, I leave rupture out in favor of retaliation and use rupture after I switch aggro with companion by force camouflage.

I haven't done the math on the effectiveness of my rotation but it's the most fluid rotation I could think of.
Ideally you want to start with 30 fury so you can pop bloodthirst, then use frenzy for berserk. If you can't use berkserk, spam some assaults or something.

The main prob is that rotations are very sensitive. If you get interrupted, then you must use a priority system and the effectiveness depends entirely on the familiarity you have with the class and the spec. Maths are useful, but animation and movement get in the way.

As for trinkets, best way to pop them seems to be when using ravage. Trinket+adrenal+bloodthirst ravage is just ridiculous.

Important: It seems like if you queue force scream before blood frenzy ends, you will get the critical even if it shows that the buff has ended. There is certainly some delay between buff ending and rage point gained. I'm not 100% sure, but my rotation is based on this. I did it instictively, never cared enough to test it, but I can safely say that I don't remember force scream not criting since I got massacre.

Edit: Just a tip. A good time to use force camo is when you have to get in charge range so you can reset the rotation. Aggro drop+ faster movement.

[Bane]

So I did some testing last night, because I wanted to see if Ravage could benefit from Gore if it falls off mid channel. I tested it on a BH with 29.77% defense.

Ravage with Full Duration Gore worked out at an average of 2.6k over 20 hits.
Ravage with 1 second left on Gore worked out at an average of 2k over 20 hits.

With Full Duration Gore, the first hit of Ravage was lower than the second hit (19 times out of 20)
With 1 second left on Gore, the second hit was lower, I can assume because it is not benefiting from Gore.

I was hoping that I could use 2x Massacre then finish off with a Ravage to get the most out of Gore, but if only the first hit is getting the benefit, then it isn't worth it.

[Eskel]

Carnage Marauders. Are you using Rupture at all?

[dante2387]

as far as i know rupture isnt used as carnage,you're better of using a vicious slash instead,but better wait till one of theorycrafters here confirm it

[LagunaD]

(01-18-2012 05:53 PM)dante2387 Wrote:  as far as i know rupture isnt used as carnage,you're better of using a vicious slash instead,but better wait till one of theorycrafters here confirm it

When I crunched the numbers on my 50 Marauder in beta, Rupture wasn't worth using, but this depends on some assumptions about enemy mitigation. If the disparity between kinetic/energy and internal/elemental is big enough, Rupture could theoretically come out ahead.

At Level 40+, you shouldn't use Vicious Slash either.

[Ezmode]

Rupture does show to be a slight increase in DPS, where as the same number of Vicious Slash attempts would result in a loss in DPS.

[dante2387]

oh right my bad,i mixed carnage with rage

[Lord Sav]

(01-18-2012 06:32 PM)LagunaD Wrote:  At Level 40+, you shouldn't use Vicious Slash either.

Correct. Move Vicious Slash off your action bar, as it will never be used by a Carnage Marauder. Replace with Massacre.

[Mertox]

(01-18-2012 06:32 PM)LagunaD Wrote:  

(01-18-2012 05:53 PM)dante2387 Wrote:  as far as i know rupture isnt used as carnage,you're better of using a vicious slash instead,but better wait till one of theorycrafters here confirm it

When I crunched the numbers on my 50 Marauder in beta, Rupture wasn't worth using, but this depends on some assumptions about enemy mitigation. If the disparity between kinetic/energy and internal/elemental is big enough, Rupture could theoretically come out ahead.

At Level 40+, you shouldn't use Vicious Slash either.

You are correct, Rupture is terrible for Carnage.

[KlonoaPrower]

Needed Abilities:
-Assault: Filler due to it's rage building properties (low damage, +2 rage)
-Ataru Form: The stance we need to use to be useful at all, causes all of our attacks to have a chance to deal bonus damage.
-Battering Assault: Used during rage building phases to quickly fill half your rage bar. (low damage, +6 rage)
-Berserk: Reduces the rage cost of Massacre by 1 (to -2 rage, 1 refund) and reduces it's GCD by 0.5 seconds. (-30 fury)
-Gore: Increases your armor pen to 100% for 6 seconds, making it wonderful for burn damage parts of the fight. (mid damage, -3 Rage)
-Massacre: Our bread and butter ability, dealing almost as much damage as vicious strike, but also immediately procing an ataru form strike. Replaces Vicious strike. (Mid damage, -3 rage (-2 while berserked), refunds 1 rage)
-Force Scream: Mediocre ability that gains massive power through our talent tree. Needs to be used when Blood Frenzy is up. (High Damage, -2 rage)

This spec seems to be a lot more about building up rage for bursty DPS, rather than having a set priority. It seems most efficient to build up rage, then gore to burn it off, then rebuild it while waiting for gore to come off of CD. Going into a fight, you usually end up using charge (4 rage, total 4) and then BA (6 rage, total 10), which you can then use to Gore (-3 rage, total 7), Massacre (-3 rage, 1 refund, total 5), Force Scream (-2 rage, total 3), Massacre (-3 rage, 1 refund, total 1). This effectively means that you need about 10 rage to fully make use of Gore when you use it. Now, this is purely for single target, which is what really seems to matter right now.

Things of note though:
-Gore should only be used at 10+ rage.
-Force Scream should only be used if Blood Frenzy is up.
-Massacre can be used to instantly put up Blood Frenzy, always.
-Savage Kick and Pommel Strike should always be used if possible, they're extremely situational, and neigh unusable on bosses, but they'll do more damage than any other abilities.
-Berserk should be used whenever possible, it effectively reduces Massacre's rage cost to 1 and makes it spamable.



To answer a few questions from earlier:

Is it a DPS loss or gain to Spam FS when it's off CD regardless if we have 100% crit chance or not?
If using FS off CD with no 100% crit chance is a DPS loss, how long should I wait for the buff before I use FS before I start to lose DPS?

-- It is a DPS loss to not use FS without Blood Frenzy up. If BF is not up, a single Massacre will immediately bring it up, therefore, using it without BF up is a waste.


Is using Rupture a DPS loss or gain? (I've heard conflicting theories backed by no data)
Is using Ravage a DPS loss or gain? (I've heard conflicting theories backed by no data)

-- Both Rupture and Ravage are DPS losses. Rupture costs too much rage to be useful, especially when you can get two massacres for the same amount of rage. Ravage is a waste of two GCDs and only really has limited application when talented.