Annihilation Discipline abilities and rotation discussion

[Manveru]

I'm not so sure about Pulverize though. I'm gonna copy that part:

VICIOUS SLASH
Pulverize has a 33% chance (1st chance 100% *.33) on the first attempt.

Pulverize has a 55.11% chance (1st + (2nd chance 67% * .33 = 22.11%)) on the second attempt.

Pulverize has a 69.92% chance (1st + 2nd + (3rd chance 44.89% * .33 = 14.81%)) on the third attempt.

Pulverize has a 79.84% chance (1st + 2nd + 3rd (4th chance 30.08% * .33 = 9.92%)) on the third attempt.

ANNIHILATE
Pulverize has a 66% chance (1st chance 100% *.66) on the first attempt.

Pulverize has a 88.44% chance (1st + (2nd chance 34% * .66 = 22.44%)) on the second attempt.

Pulverize has a 96.06% chance (1st + 2nd + (3rd chance 11.56% * .66 = 7.62%)) on the third attempt.

So the tradeoff ends up being minimal, especially considering internal cooldown on Pulverize.

[Genu]

You do know that this does not disprove what i wrote?

Vicious Slash pulverize with 2 Vicious Slash is roughly 55%, as i wrote. This is the refresh rate for equal use of rage.
if you want to go there by refresh chance, you need 3 Vicious Slashes to get a slight above Annihilate Refresh chance.
If you now take in the part of gcd's needed for a refresh, Annihilate is even more ahead.
So If you need to Spend more than 4 rage when you refresh, your steadiest chance is using Annihilate when off cd,
then use Vicious Slash, and you have a cost of 6 rage, 2 gcd's and 76% Refresh rate over 8 rage, 4 gcd's and 80% refresh rate.

And again, statistically on endless fighting time, 33% of vicious slash is 33%, but in any limited iteration below, specially on a infight iteration number
as for a 15 minute fight, vicious slash proc rate rarely equal or surpass 33%, but annihilation will be more often equal or surpass 66%.

however, there is no discussion of not using annihilate, even if its dpr on first look may not be highest, its dpgcd is, whilst improving combat flow by the talents which affect it.

[Skeleton Jack]

My post starts off with the following words:

"This is my base framework for theory crafting my priority systems. It is just the beginning of my future endeavors for maximizing DPS for the Marauder and Sentinel."

Also as you can see I listed not only the DPR but the D/GCD as well, for example:

Slash / Vicious Slash

• 1107 damage, 1107 d/gcd, 553 dpr (base line)
• Refunds one rage when used (2 Rage cost total)
• Has a 33% chance to refresh the CD on Rupture (cannot occur more than once per 6 sec)
  

Taking crit into account: 1107 x .2 = 221, 221 x 1.56 = 344, 1107 x .8 = 885, 885 + 344 = 1229 damage

1229 damage on average or 614 dpr

While I appreciate your discussion on the effects of Annihilation, keep in mind that my post was exactly what I said it was. A base framework for theory crafting. It's to put actual numbers in my hand to compare and measure d/gcd, dpr, dps, etc... And while it can point to observations and concepts it is by no means the definitive answer.

As to some of Genu's points:

Quote:his priority list cant work out, since he did not consider the ragebuilders, which are most important for a working priority to fix rage issues. with rage issues unfixed, he maybe right with his list.

I specifically noted that the rage builders were not considered in anything. Which affects not only DPR abilities but Ravage as well. Taking things like that into account would of course change priorities.

Quote:Rupture and Deadly Saber are sources of internal damage, which is, AFAIK handled as physical non-Force true damage attack. I will do some research on this to confirm. So here it is. There is no quite official Source, but many say that maurauders damage over time effects are marked as force effects.

Force damage is defined by yellow damage from everything I've seen so far in game. As far as tooltips are concerned they've been incorrect so often to this point that it's never a good idea anymore to follow them. As to boss/mob defenses, I've not seen anything definitive data mined yet on these statistics, with most posts on the matter simply conjecture at best.

Quote:It becomes more important when you are starving rage, meaning when your rage costing abilities are off cooldown and your resource is low. As you are in overflow of resource, dpr becomes unimportant.

This is a fallacy due to the Rage generation mechanics. At any point and time where you must rely upon anything other than Battering Assault (most efficient generator) and Empowerment, you must take the D/GCD of Force Charge & Assault into account for any rage spenders and determining their respective D/GCD. Because it is impossible to use all of your abilities with just Empowerment and Battering Assault alone the D/GCD of abilities that are not efficient on DPR affect your overall DPR the most, which directly affects your DPS and your D/GCD.

This is a common misconception for many Annihilation players as they "feel" like they always have enough Rage.


Edit: I don't follow these forums, so I will apologize in advance for not making follow up responses. I saw several track backs on my website coming from here and I didn't want my work being taken out of context, which it was.

-Suffer Well Brothers and Sisters...
http://www.skeletonjack.com/
http://www.twitch.tv/skeleton_jack

[blahblah]

(01-07-2012 01:18 PM)Manveru Wrote:  I'm not so sure about Pulverize though. I'm gonna copy that part:

VICIOUS SLASH
Pulverize has a 33% chance (1st chance 100% *.33) on the first attempt.

Pulverize has a 55.11% chance (1st + (2nd chance 67% * .33 = 22.11%)) on the second attempt.

Pulverize has a 69.92% chance (1st + 2nd + (3rd chance 44.89% * .33 = 14.81%)) on the third attempt.

Pulverize has a 79.84% chance (1st + 2nd + 3rd (4th chance 30.08% * .33 = 9.92%)) on the third attempt.

ANNIHILATE
Pulverize has a 66% chance (1st chance 100% *.66) on the first attempt.

Pulverize has a 88.44% chance (1st + (2nd chance 34% * .66 = 22.44%)) on the second attempt.

Pulverize has a 96.06% chance (1st + 2nd + (3rd chance 11.56% * .66 = 7.62%)) on the third attempt.

So the tradeoff ends up being minimal, especially considering internal cooldown on Pulverize.

Forgive me for this as maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying....
but this math as I am reading it is incorrect.

You have a 33% chance on your first attempt
You have a 33% chance on your second attempt
You have a 33% chance on your third attempt

This being said over three attempts your chance increases over 33%
However, on each individual attempt you still only have 33%
No matter how many times you flip a coin, each toss still only has 50% to be what you call.
Thinking differently is a common fallacy all over the place. Listen to poker players complain and you this come up a lot.

[Genu]

(01-09-2012 10:27 AM)Skeleton Jack Wrote:  While I appreciate your discussion on the effects of Annihilation, keep in mind that my post was exactly what I said it was. A base framework for theory crafting. It's to put actual numbers in my hand to compare and measure d/gcd, dpr, dps, etc... And while it can point to observations and concepts it is by no means the definitive answer.

I have seen that and your work is great, but a user in here quoted your source in intend to radically change our minds on annihilation priority. I neither meant to dispatch your work in any way, as it is a helpful source for optimizing if you look on it the right way.

(01-09-2012 10:27 AM)Genu Wrote:  his priority list cant work out, since he did not consider the ragebuilders, which are most important for a working priority to fix rage issues. with rage issues unfixed, he maybe right with his list.

The statement was not made for you as you do know what your work is for and what not, but some forum members looked at it the wrong way. I did not intent to offend you, i just wanted to clear up minds here in this forum.

(01-09-2012 10:27 AM)Skeleton Jack Wrote:  Force damage is defined by yellow damage from everything I've seen so far in game. As far as tooltips are concerned they've been incorrect so often to this point that it's never a good idea anymore to follow them. As to boss/mob defenses, I've not seen anything definitive data mined yet on these statistics, with most posts on the matter simply conjecture at best.

I have to agree on that. But with an attack counting as force attack or not, theres just a flag on the ability for it, which you can find using the nodeviewer tool found in the programmatic section of this forum. An ability being a force attack is not derived by the type of damage it deals, as i wrongly suggested from other mmo experience, force attacks may do any type of damage, they just are flagged as force attack to profit from talents.

(01-09-2012 10:27 AM)Skeleton Jack Wrote:  

Quote:It becomes more important when you are starving rage, meaning when your rage costing abilities are off cooldown and your resource is low. As you are in overflow of resource, dpr becomes unimportant.

This is a fallacy due to the Rage generation mechanics. At any point and time where you must rely upon anything other than Battering Assault (most efficient generator) and Empowerment, you must take the D/GCD of Force Charge & Assault into account for any rage spenders and determining their respective D/GCD. Because it is impossible to use all of your abilities with just Empowerment and Battering Assault alone the D/GCD of abilities that are not efficient on DPR affect your overall DPR the most, which directly affects your DPS and your D/GCD.

This is a common misconception for many Annihilation players as they "feel" like they always have enough Rage.

Onto a closer look, you have to calculate the total dpgcd by the time you need to build up the resources for an ability adding the damage of the ability divided by number of gcds used.
the question is, how much optimizing dpr will affect an overall battle. a simulatioon tool will show if you are only able to spend 3 gcds less for ragebuilders for same dps in a minute or if you are able to switch a ragebuilder vs a rageconsumer.
and what matters most, how it will affect priority complexity, since an ability like smash will not have its place in a simplified model, and how high the gain of it will be.
Since what affects dps at most, is how good your choices of next ability are.

I will not argue if you take a bot on it or simulate, you may be able to get better results. however, its still up to the first simulations if the gain will be worth it.

(01-09-2012 10:27 AM)Skeleton Jack Wrote:  I don't follow these forums, so I will apologize in advance for not making follow up responses. I saw several track backs on my website coming from here and I didn't want my work being taken out of context, which it was.

As your works goal is to optimize dps by optimizing dpr and building up a priority for abillities dpr for first conclusion in further refining, i cannot see it being ripped out of the context in a maximum dps priority system discussion.

However, thanks for your high quality source.

[Kravn]

Should Retaliation be used when available? It's relatively expensive rage-wise, but doesn't respect the GCD, so it's "free" D/GCD. I didn't see any reference to this ability earlier in the thread.

[Genu]

(01-10-2012 02:52 AM)Kravn Wrote:  Should Retaliation be used when available? It's relatively expensive rage-wise, but doesn't respect the GCD, so it's "free" D/GCD. I didn't see any reference to this ability earlier in the thread.

Retaliation will rarely be available to use, since you should not be the one with aggro, so it should not get triggered.
If its available, it _may_ be a dps boost, considering your abilities cooldown and your actual rage.

[Masterkiller]

I've been looking at how skills and other modifiers effect bleeds this morning. Bleeds are absolutely derived from our force bonus damage stat.

Code:

(coefficient * force bonus damage) + (standardhealthpercent * standardhealth)

They are flagged as cbtSpellType_Force, however bleeds are an effect and I'm not sure if there is a discrepancy between an effect and an attack which would determine if Malice affects bleeds or not. If it does, that would certainly increase it's value and challenge the current 31/10/0 build I default to.

@skeletonjack No need to get so defensive on your blog post. Challenging ideals and concepts is par for the course here.

[Kaedis]

Sooooo MK and I were futzing around with some damage calculations, and we were flabbergasted by the fact that Rupture seemed to be ticking for a lot more than it should have been. We did the math, and it's hitting precisely 30% harder than expected. We've yet to double-check this by respecing our of it, but out current theory is that Deep Wounds affects the DoT as well as the DD. Can anyone substantiate or contradict this?

[dante2387]

btw,is there like some sort of soft crit cap for annihlation atm?or?and same for surge