1.2 PvP DPS Guide - Focus Guardian - Rage Juggernaut

[Pander Beers]

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  But one big concern I have is you seem to be a little bit too biased towards Focus/Rage spec.

Yep, it's the spec I've played since level 40, for 5 months, and I love it. Hence, title of the guide There's a Vengeance/Vigilance guide in the PvE section that's pretty cool

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  1. It's true that AoE is usually more destructive than single target, but only on classes that can keep up the AoE pressure (Powertechs/Vanguards) as opposed to a super charged smash every once and a while. And against any competent premade, you telegraph your rage spec with shii-cho form or drop a smash that hits a lot harder than usual and the enemy will take steps to counter very easy, mainly not stacking up and/or saving their knockbacks/stuns for the middle of your Smash/Sweep animation negating your ace in the hole. Waiting around for full resolve, or the enemy team to run out of CC against you isn't exactly a good strategy to follow in a serious fight.

Powertechs and Vanguards do the most burst damage from their single-target abilities (burning-proc management + armor-piercing high-impact bolts), but sure. Our big crits drop every 12 seconds thanks to 1.2. If I am generating a lot of aggro because of Shii-cho form or the fact that I'm a Focus/Rage spec, then that's perfectly fine. Worst case scenario, I switch to Soresu form like Skroting, still do great damage with some more difficult resource generation, and live longer. What you're describing is a 8-man team dedicated to stopping Focus/Rage Guardians and Juggernauts. If anything, that's hardly realistic considering the other higher-dps, healing, and objective threats on the map. On my smaller server, where there are only 3 guardians/juggernauts who are named and recognized - me being the top DPS'ing Focus/Rage spec, I generate a lot of aggro. I would argue that I play under the circumstance you describe, in which people are actively looking to stop my big crits. I anticipate knockbacks and CC and play around that. I'd take the same approach into ranked warzones.

You're not describing a realistic warzone fight, one in which people are actively looking to stop this spec over others targets.

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  2. To be fair, most PvP'ers worth a salt will opt for burst over sustain, and while true to an extent, has to be taken into further context for a Jugg/Gaurd guide. Burst is what kills, but not when the target is still at 90%, but in execute range. Now, we can argue back and forth all day about always having a super charged smash up for execute range, but lets face reality here. It's way too unreliable, Veng/Vig does burst in execute phase way better with Savagery/Force Rush, basically making Vicious Throw/Dispatch and Force Scream/Blade Storm two executes with a huge crit chance. I can't even count how many times top tier healers on my server get into this range allowing me and the DPS I'm assisting to drop reliable big crits sub 35% with this buff and the necessary adrenals/relics popped ending them.

Vengeance/Vigilance = Single Target execute OP
Rage/Focus = AoE execute OP

At 35% hp, let's be serious, the guy is going to die whether or not you do it in 1 global cooldown or two. Most of the time, I throw my dispatch execute and then just move on to a new target because I have teammates around me who will all throw a little love and finish the target off. Worst case scenario, I pop combat focus, fill myself with 4 stacks of singularity/shockwave and drop a 2 global cooldown big crit. Not a big deal. In practice, I've rarely had an issue finishing people off. I'm also concerned about how much overkill you're doing if you're popping adrenals/relics, because when I drop a dispatch, I crit often and end up with 4.5k dispatches a lot. I'm not logged in, and I will validate these ballpark numbers as soon as possible, but I believe I'm sitting at ~38% crit chance? I'm only in 3 piece War Hero gear, so that number is sure to change based on WH itemization.

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  3. Honestly, aside from stomping on beginner PvP characters with recruit gear, show me a screenshot of you dropping 7k crits on someone in full War Hero gear. And then tell me if this was in a real fight, or you asking a buddy for a screenshot in a duel to prove me wrong.

Gauss already corrected you on this. And I've stated in my guide that post 1.2, I'm averaging 3k on heavy, 4k on medium, and 5k on light armor. We make a lot of our damage up from the improved single-saber mastery + earlier dispatches, stronger master strikes, etc. Even though our crits are weaker, compared to other classes, we're still doing solid damage. Nerf on our force sweep/smash, but in retrospec, it was just a balancing act. Our non-big-hit damage was buffed across so we're doing more sustained damage there, with a solid AoE crit finisher every 12 seconds.

Also, I take offense that you would consider my damage numbers to be the result of a damage-farming duel. That's pretty low, and I question your manhood. Everything I do and the numbers I post are legit. l2p

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  Don't get me wrong, both specs are great in their own respect, but I feel like Veng/Vig will always surpass Rage/Focus in serious organized pvp between two teams that know what they are doing. Not just a game where a bunch of new pvp players stacked up on the huttball stand in the center and let themselves get wrecked by a Smash/Sweep. And if this is just a guide for "How to stomp newer players that don't know what a Rage/Focus build does", you should make that explicitly clear.

What serious, organized PvP have you competed it? Maybe you've got secret access to ranked warzones that I'm jelly for Otherwise, you're just trolling. Your arguments are conjecture. Let your melee DPS sit in the back and fist-bump while the ball carrier is walking in to the endzone. The ridiculousness of your argument that no one will be grouped up on Huttball aside, why is a Guardian/Juggernaut dps'ing on Huttball in the first place? You should be switched to your tank gear that you keep in your inventory, Soresu form, ball in hand, scoring. We're, hands down, the best ball carriers in the game. If you're DPS'ing on Huttball, you're doing it wrong.

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  Another huge one up that Veng/Vig gets over Rage/Focus is a few more defensive talents that have to be chosen to progress up the tree and without any sacrifice to the DPS output of the build. DPS Juggs/Gaurds by nature are only slightly more hardy than their cousins without the two "did I really just get bursted down that fast, god mode turn on!" abilities, so any defensive options should be welcomed with open arms, especially against good players that know how vulnerable DPS Juggs/Guards can be with serious focus on them. I speak for myself here but if I see a Jugg/Guard in any dps stance I will absolutely focus them over the marauder and get them out of the fight much faster, often times with great success. Bar their pocket healer pumping them full of sweet, sweet heals.

/shrug a few more defensive talents = 1... Warding Call

Warding Call
Jedi Knight (Guardian)

Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 180 secs
Mirror: Invincible

Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds.

. Yes, it's the best defensive cooldown available to tanking classes (I was going to say in the game, but Guarded by the Force

Guarded by the Force
Jedi Knight (Sentinel)

Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 90 secs
Mirror: Undying Rage

Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds.

is the best defensive cooldown. period.) I'm not going to speak on the Vengeance/Vigilance tree, because I have very limited experience with it. However, from what I heard, Plasma Brand (top 31 point talent) is the bomb, and your tree loses notable DPS without it. He said, she said.

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  Lastly, your argument for hybrid Soresu Rage/Focus really isn't all that practical because hybrid Soresu Veng/Vig does the job much better. In order to effectively play as a hybrid Jugg/Guard in today's PvP, you need at least the free Chilling Scream/Freezing Force and one stun from the Immortal/Defense build to actually play the role you describe. The 31 point talent in Veng/Vig is not needed at all to still tear people apart like it is for Rage/Focus. And I'd be more than happy to post some screenshots of my 16/25/0 Veng/Immortal hybrid build doing over 400k damage, taunting and guarding as well netting me a respectable amount of protection.

Free Chilling Screem/Freezing Force vs. 1 resource cast isn't that big of a difference. I'm not running around spamming that ability, I'm DPS'ing. The times I use it are, although often, very specific times. The stun you're talking about is WAY up in the Immortal/Defense tree (Tier 5) and at that point you're not doing real DPS anyways with a hybrid build. Also, that stun generates 800 resolve Unnecessary roughness.

You're correct in stating that our 31 point talent in Rage/Focus is more valuable to us than your 31 point talent is in Vengeance/Vigilance. That's an error on the developers not balancing the top levels of the different trees well enough - an issue that our Sage/Sorcerer buddies suffer from on a much more extreme level. As far as doing a lot of damage on the end-game score screen, this is my look on it. First, I put my screenshots up there as kind of a fun thing. Everyone does it on their guides, and to an extent, it gives a little bit of credibility and kind of a goal for people to work towards as they gear up. I haven't posted any 1.2 screenshots, because I've kind of been lazy on playing recently. Comparing my top score to your top score is an epeen sizing contest. If you're doing your job right, your not going to have face-roll numbers at the end of the game because people are dying before their healers can do their job. There's only so much health the enemy team has that you can score damage points off of, and if you're scoring 400k damage as a hybrid immortal/defense spec, I'll wager to say that there was some damage farming going on because the enemy healers were free casting. Just sayin. My best games are the ones in which I have relatively low damage at the end-game screenshot. You know whether you're doing your job. Pics and total damage are just for show and funsies

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)Holographic Wrote:  And yes, I apologize in advance if this becomes a Veng/Vig fanboi versus Rage/Focus fanboi discussion. I only aim to compare the pros/cons of Veng/Vig to Rage/Focus and make this an even more srs bsns guide designed to guide the newbs on how to Jugg/Guard properly.

That wasn't an apology in advance, btw. In all honesty though, I appreciate you giving some push back on the guide. All of my replies are really with light-heartedness in the intent. I've seen Vengeance/Vigilance spec'd guys go out and do amazing damage. To be honest, comparing the two specs is all random. Some games, you'll get more awesome groupings - some games, you won't. It's what makes PvP more exciting to me than PvE, because every warzone is different. You're going to get different results every time you play, and that's what's fun. It's not calculated number-crunching--- oh, Focus/Rage is the best b/c of this damage! oh, Vigilance/Vengeance is better because of that!

Nah man, like I said a long time ago, and what someone gave me flak for b/c they don't know what they're talking about it's about the feel of the character under your fingertips. If you're a Vengeance Juggernaut, and you're out there melting faces and tormenting the Republic -- keep at it. Do what you do best and rock those warzones. For me, I'm a Focus Guardian. I always have been, and always will be. There's nothing I do better than crush the Empire and cause lamentation of their women (Conan OP). In the end, arguments are made in favor of both, and most of the arguments are valid. It comes down to individual player and play style.

For new Guardians and Juggernauts -- I'm not telling them to play this spec. I would rather them try out both and FEEL what is right. If you can't agree with me on this and still insist that your tree will out DPS Focus/Rage (in high ELO ranked games) -- then I'll see you at the top of the leaderboards if you get there.

----
bigsandwich - power augments always -- the power is included before your crits or anything else is included, so you're getting maximum gains with no diminishing returns -- you'll get enough surge from your optimization

[Othium]

Everything else that was important in this thread now comes secondary to the below comment...

Quote:There's nothing I do better than crush the Empire and cause lamentation of their women (Conan OP).

That's just pure win and now I'm considering transferring servers just to hang out with you... LOL

[Annai]

Quote:My best games are the ones in which I have relatively low damage at the end-game screenshot. You know whether you're doing your job.

While SW:Tor pvp actually tries to reward "doing the right thing", this is sadly still very true. I was on the recieveing end of a lost Hutball last night, in which the winners had a total of around 70k damage done and 120k healing (yes, total. Not per person. Hate when the enemy knows what they are doing ). Great spacing in teams of two meant they won the whole thing in way too short a time.

Even more annoying when the Rage Juggernaut would be best served by jumping into the middle of the hotly contested fire-control of Novare Coast or the rushed door on Voidstar, but no one else of your random group is bloody there and someone has to defend the lone turret/door.

I'm still sticking to my rage spec. The third jump is just too nice not to have. And it is surprisingly annoying when you first end up in a Hutball match on an operative and can't switch levels at will.

[Pander Beers]

(05-18-2012 06:17 PM)Annai Wrote:  I'm still sticking to my rage spec. The third jump is just too nice not to have. And it is surprisingly annoying when you first end up in a Hutball match on an operative and can't switch levels at will.

I know EXACTLY what you mean lol - no knockback and no leaps made Huttball matches brutal on my Scoundrel. I love to use our 10m leap to jump from the middle area near the neutral ball up to snipers/ranged dps hanging out on that first platform thinking they're hot stuff. If you see a sniper/gunslinger up there in cover, just run below them and hop up there - the distance is ~10m but when you jump up you can make it.

[Othium]

lololol... yeah it sucks going from playing a jugg back to something like operative with limited mobility. In my case, I played my operative to 50 first (probably my favorite class even after nerfs) so I'm really enjoying the mobility that the rage tree offers. There is nothing more epic than leaping from mid to goal in just a few seconds and leaving the enemy team in the dust (except for the poor guy that I just force pushed to the goal so that I could leap to him).

Awesome guide Pander. Keep up the good work!

[samboallday11]

Ok, i have two abilities i need some help with on my jugg. Not sure what they are called for guardians, but the ablities are "Pommel Strike" and "Savage Kick"
Now, "Pommel Strike" is only usable on strong targets and if they are incapacitated. I have yet to see this ability light up during pvp combat to where i can use it, so im guessing other players are not considered "strong targets"? If im wrong about that then what constitutes a player incapacitated and which juggernaut abilities would i use to get them that way
"Savage Kick" is also only usable on strong targets and if the target is imobilized. I remember watching this ability during pvp after i use my chilled scream to get a slow and after my charge and it never activated for use either... so i think i just answered my own question, because the only thing that would make sense is that pvp targets are not considered strong. Confirm please, and tell me im retarted for writing all this when all i needed to do was ask that last question. Lol

[Othium]

Hey Sam,

Yes you certainly did answer it yourself lol! Those abilities only work on NPCs. Many classes have an ability that only lights up on "incapacitated" targets such as the BH shoulder slam, the agent's headshot, etc. These abilities do not work in PVP. Can't honestly say if that's a good or a bad thing but if Jugg's could use savage kick (no rage cost, high damage, pure win... you get the picture) we would just be that much more deadly.

[samboallday11]

(05-24-2012 11:55 PM)Othium Wrote:  Hey Sam,

Yes you certainly did answer it yourself lol! Those abilities only work on NPCs. Many classes have an ability that only lights up on "incapacitated" targets such as the BH shoulder slam, the agent's headshot, etc. These abilities do not work in PVP. Can't honestly say if that's a good or a bad thing but if Jugg's could use savage kick (no rage cost, high damage, pure win... you get the picture) we would just be that much more deadly.

Yea, i was hoping i was wrong.. i wish i could use those abilities lol. Thx for the response tho

[Sypherix]

If I didn't read this guide I would have been a Sent instead of a guardian. Amazing guide first and foremost. I have had a blast giving it a try in pvp now, but was wondering something on the spec.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500MZsMMZGrobdfRrcz.1

Same Spec that you have, except for one difference, I swapped 1 point from Stagger to Single Saber Mastery, think its worth it? I generally don't have much issue staying on my targets, but I am only 41 right now.

[Pander Beers]

(05-31-2012 09:01 AM)Sypherix Wrote:  Same Spec that you have, except for one difference, I swapped 1 point from Stagger to Single Saber Mastery, think its worth it? I generally don't have much issue staying on my targets, but I am only 41 right now.

The tweaking with those last 10 points is definitely going to be up to personal preference, but I really do think that 0.5 seconds is a big difference. The combat is extremely fast-paced and people are melted in a second or two (given proper focus fire). Our biggest enemy is getting kited, and being able to keep someone within range just a moment longer can definitely be a notable advantage.