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RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - dipstik - 06-30-2012 08:30 AM
i would prolly go with one static Wh relic and one of the on use ones, just for the added bonus and control over when that happens, but 2 WH relics is prolly going to be best for your typical 6 min boss fight.
cube is prtty much garbage now
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - nish - 06-30-2012 07:04 PM
(06-30-2012 08:30 AM)dipstik Wrote: i would prolly go with one static Wh relic and one of the on use ones, just for the added bonus and control over when that happens, but 2 WH relics is prolly going to be best for your typical 6 min boss fight.
cube is prtty much garbage now
I think simc shows the internal energy campain relic (or elemental) being bis along with a war hero of boundless ages.
-Nish
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Wugan - 07-01-2012 05:02 AM
(06-30-2012 07:04 PM)nish Wrote: I think simc shows the internal energy campain relic (or elemental) being bis along with a war hero of boundless ages.
-Nish
EDIT: Please see correction below; SimulationCraft was not properly importing my proc relic.
Can you let me know what sims you ran to show that? I just ran two sims with my gear, one with War Hero of Boundless Ages/Campaign Relic of Elemental Transcendance and the second with War Hero/War Hero. In both sims I tested Light Movement, low world lag, and 25000 iterations. I am in the hybrid spec (1/12/28).
War Hero/Campaign gave me 1659 DPS, while War Hero/War Hero showed 1698, a pretty significant improvement.
I also tested my gear in Telekinetic spec, although keep in mind my gear is optimized for hybrid so this may be less useful. War Hero/Campaign shows 1669 DPS while War Hero/War Hero shows 1709 DPS. So in both specs, double War Hero seems to be about 40 DPS ahead for me.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - senraven - 07-02-2012 03:17 PM
So I've gone through this entire thread (and boy are my eyes bleeding). Well they did "fix" the double dip with 1.3 patch, so that's out the window now. What are people's opinions? is 1/12/28 still good with no double-dip or does a 3/10/28 make more sense now? or even a full on Madness spec? I never bothered with it, maybe i should try.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - nish - 07-02-2012 06:55 PM
(07-01-2012 05:02 AM)Wugan Wrote:(06-30-2012 07:04 PM)nish Wrote: I think simc shows the internal energy campain relic (or elemental) being bis along with a war hero of boundless ages.
-Nish
Can you let me know what sims you ran to show that? I just ran two sims with my gear, one with War Hero of Boundless Ages/Campaign Relic of Elemental Transcendance and the second with War Hero/War Hero. In both sims I tested Light Movement, low world lag, and 25000 iterations. I am in the hybrid spec (1/12/28).
War Hero/Campaign gave me 1659 DPS, while War Hero/War Hero showed 1698, a pretty significant improvement.
I also tested my gear in Telekinetic spec, although keep in mind my gear is optimized for hybrid so this may be less useful. War Hero/Campaign shows 1669 DPS while War Hero/War Hero shows 1709 DPS. So in both specs, double War Hero seems to be about 40 DPS ahead for me.
I just ran two sims for both Hybrid and TK spec with my gear with one War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages one Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance.
25000 iterations and light movement. I get exact same dps with both in hybrid (1667, although my mods and enhancements are geared towards TK spec), and a 3 dps gain in TK spec (1698 vs. 1701). I'd be very surprised if the extra war hero relic was responsible for 40 dps gain over an internal/elemental campaign proc relic.
In fact, I just ran a sim with no second relic and the difference in hybrid spec was 1620 vs 1667 (47 dps) with only one war hero relic. So, there's probably an issue with your sim somewhere.
-Nish
P.S. Could you give me a link to your askmrrobot profile? I'd like to see how a hybrid spec could get such high damage. I haven't seen anything that high yet and I have nearly bis gear for TK.
EDIT: I just ran three sims optimizing stats for the Hybrid spec (only 10k iterations for speed but light movement and low server lag). First results were War Hero power relic and Dark Radiance relic. Second was two War Hero power relics. Third was one War Hero power relic and one empty slot (no relic).
Dark Radiance + War Hero power = 1688 dps
War Hero power x 2 =1686 dps
One War Hero power + empty slot = 1639 dps
I'm showing a loss of 3 dps by using 2 war hero relics (not to mention the loss of endurance) over 1 war hero and 1 dark radiance. I'm showing a loss of 47 dps by only having 1 war hero relic and no second relic vs 2 war hero. So, it seems that your sims aren't correctly calculating the dps of your proc relic. You're gaining the amt of dps that it would seem you would get by adding a relic where there was none.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - nish - 07-02-2012 07:06 PM
(07-02-2012 03:17 PM)senraven Wrote: So I've gone through this entire thread (and boy are my eyes bleeding). Well they did "fix" the double dip with 1.3 patch, so that's out the window now. What are people's opinions? is 1/12/28 still good with no double-dip or does a 3/10/28 make more sense now? or even a full on Madness spec? I never bothered with it, maybe i should try.
Hybrid is still good, TK is simming better but it's a difficult rotation that loses dps when moving.
Hybrid = easy, good dps, self heals (some), uses more force, little burst, decent aoe but kills your force
Lightning/TK = difficult rotation to get used to, more of a dps loss when moving compared to hybrid, more force (almost can't run out) more burst, great aoe
Madness/balance = I haven't tested it much but it's great in pvp probably uses more force than hybrid (don't quote me on that), decent mobility. Might be less dps than hybrid still (by a small amount) in pve.
-Nish
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - senraven - 07-03-2012 01:01 AM
I saw some people earlier post that they're having issues with force in hybrid build, but I don't know why, I never seem to run out even on long fights. I had more problems with it when chain lightning was still in the rotation but since that's been taken out, no issues
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - nish - 07-03-2012 02:10 AM
Double dotting tanks forces me to use consumption in a tanks fight with hybrid. Also, I may use up force using projects when on the run but will consume when I can (Nightmare Karagga). I also don't use the set bonuses but they'd help a bit there.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - hatterson - 07-03-2012 03:22 AM
(07-02-2012 06:55 PM)nish Wrote: <snip>
Dark Radiance + War Hero power = 1688 dps
War Hero power x 2 =1686 dps
One War Hero power + empty slot = 1639 dps
I'm showing a loss of 3 dps by using 2 war hero relics (not to mention the loss of endurance) over 1 war hero and 1 dark radiance. I'm showing a loss of 47 dps by only having 1 war hero relic and no second relic vs 2 war hero. So, it seems that your sims aren't correctly calculating the dps of your proc relic. You're gaining the amt of dps that it would seem you would get by adding a relic where there was none.
Can I take a look at your profile? Based on what I remember 1 power ~= .42 DPS which would mean 47.46 DPS for 113 power. And 184 damage proc * 1.3 for expected added value from crits (40% crit, 75% surge) = 239.2 average damage per proc. In order for this to equal 47.46 DPS it would need to proc every 5 seconds. Based on what I've seen in simC the average proc is really in the 6.25-6.4s range which still theoretically puts the proc relic ~9 DPS below the War Hero record.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Wugan - 07-03-2012 04:40 AM
Thanks for running your sims as well Nish, you are right. What is happening is that Simulation Craft is not properly importing the Campaign Relic of Elemental Transcendence, which led me to think that double War Hero was much better. When you try to import that relic, it just shows this line:
Code:
relic2=campaign_relic_of_elemental_transcendence,ilevel=61,quality=artifact,stats=96endurance_18willpowerHowever when you import the Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance, you get:
Code:
relic2=campaign_relic_of_dark_radiance,ilevel=61,quality=artifact,stats=96endurance_18willpower,equip=ondamage_184internal_30%_4.5cdSo the Elemental Transcendence relic is only being counted for its 18 Willpower, not the proc.
When I test with the relic showing up properly, I get almost identical DPS with War Hero/War Hero or War Hero/Proc (1699 vs. 1698). You can find my AskMrRobot profile here. Please let me know if you find anything that looks wrong, or see ways I can improve.
With respect to Senraven's questions, I agree completely with Nish. Hybrid is very easy to run and still does competitive DPS as I think these sims are showing. Tele sims slightly higher, but is a little tougher to pull off perfectly in a live raid and is punished more by movement. I personally rarely see force issues with Hybrid, and I think that's generally because we have solid raid DPS. If your group is taking longer you might have issues on the Battle Tanks and Kephess, but in each fight you can find spots to Consumption if needed.
I tried running a full Balance (Madness) build when the double-dip was first fixed, but I generally found that it was just one extra dot to manage, and my force was consumed more quickly for about the same DPS. Managing DoTs and Procs with the current UI is just no fun. That might just be my lack of practice with the spec, but I didn't see a real advantage over Hybrid, which for me does a ton of DPS and allows me to focus almost entirely on the fight instead of my rotation.