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Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Printable Version

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RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - SingingZombies - 05-19-2012 06:16 AM

Quote:As you can see, the first channel received all 4 ticks, the second only 2, separated by 0.993 seconds. This is actually even more problematic than it appears, as I have 5.16% Alacrity, so those ticks should have been 0.948 seconds apart. In fact, the first channel is occurring over 1.596 seconds, rather than the 1.423 seconds it should have been.

Verdict is that double-dipping floats between being dps-neutral and a dps loss. Recommend against it. This seriously erodes the benefit of the hybrid spec.

I have been perusing my combat dummy logs (full rotation so pardon the other abilites) and this is what I've been noticing. I've indented my FLs with *** for hopefully an easier time reading it.

Code:
*** [00:05:01.854] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[00:05:01.854] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (25)
[00:05:01.854] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:01.854] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (945* energy {836045448940874}) <945>
[00:05:01.951] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Parasitism {808458873995264}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Heal {836045448945500}] (192)
[00:05:01.952] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Crushed (Force) {863460225188097}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (589* kinetic {836045448940873}) <589>
[00:05:02.850] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:02.850] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (945* energy {836045448940874}) <945>
[00:05:02.929] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Crushed (Force) {863460225188097}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (286 kinetic {836045448940873}) <286>
[00:05:03.457] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Deathmark {808428809224192}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Deathmark {808428809224449}] ()
[00:05:03.458] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Parasitism {808458873995264}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Heal {836045448945500}] (192)
[00:05:03.458] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] ()
[00:05:03.458] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (915* internal {836045448940876}) <915>
[00:05:03.749] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:03.749] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (537 energy {836045448940874}) <537>
[00:05:03.945] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Crushed (Force) {863460225188097}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (238 kinetic {836045448940873}) <238>
[00:05:03.946] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Crushing Darkness {863460225187840}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Crushed (Force) {863460225188097}] ()
[00:05:04.625] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:04.626] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (537 energy {836045448940874}) <537>
*** [00:05:04.631] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[00:05:04.631] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (25)
[00:05:04.631] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:04.632] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (945* energy {836045448940874}) <945>
[00:05:05.128] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:05.129] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (537 energy {836045448940874}) <537>
[00:05:05.624] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Corrosive Injection {2882378322149376}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (184 internal {836045448940876}) <184>
[00:05:05.625] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:05.626] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (537 energy {836045448940874}) <537>
[00:05:06.039] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:06.039] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (537 energy {836045448940874}) <537>
[00:05:06.040] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] ()
*** [00:05:06.045] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[00:05:06.046] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (25)
[00:05:06.046] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:06.046] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (945* energy {836045448940874}) <945>
[00:05:06.440] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (370 internal {836045448940876}) <370>
[00:05:07.055] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:07.055] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (945* energy {836045448940874}) <945>
*** [00:05:07.471] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()

The first 4 ticks occur from 5:01.854 and 5:04:626 and are from the last non-hasted FL I did before LB procced so that is 4.626-1.854 = 2.772sec.

I have 8.73% activation speed so my normal ticks of FL should be (3 sec)/(1+0.0873) = 2.75912812 s. (I am assuming casting X% faster is like going X% faster as in you get to your destination in oldtime/(1+X%))

Slower than what my stats say but I'm going to guess server lag.

The next 3 LB hasted ticks occur from 5:04.632 to 5:06.039 so 6.039-4.632 = 1.407.
8.73% activation speed means 1.5 sec/(1+0.0873) = 1.37956406
So slower than I expected from my stats again by a little bit.

(Note here: the time between the last nonhasted tick of FL was 5:06.626 and the next hasted tick of the new FL occurred at 5:06.632 so you are able to apply the new FL instantly after the old one finishes as you would expect with no GCD. This is important later.)

Now here's the part Kaedis noticed, the cutoff FL that follows with only 2 ticks occurs at 5:07.055 and 5:06.046 which is 7.055-6.046 = 1.009 s, as in REALLY non-hasted. (Kaedis noticed 0.993 s)

And then here's the part I noticed. I couldn't apply the new FL again until 05:07.471.
(Remember the log earlier showed that you can apply the new FL tick right after the old FL tick as you should with no GCD from FL finishing)
So 5:07.471 - 5:06.046 = 1.425 s.

This looks familiar, and is closer to the 1.38 s channel time I'm used to expecting out of my hasted FLs.

I've looked at multiple Lightning Barrage portions of my log and found this to be consistently happening. Next bit starts with the cut-off hasted FL.
Code:
[00:05:22.419] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] ()
[00:05:22.425] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[00:05:22.426] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (25)
[00:05:22.426] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:22.426] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (585 energy {836045448940874}) <585>
[00:05:22.481] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Deathmark {808428809224192}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Deathmark {808428809224449}] ()
[00:05:22.482] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (484 internal {836045448940876}) <484>
[00:05:22.783] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Crushed (Force) {863460225188097}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (259 kinetic {836045448940873}) <259>
[00:05:22.784] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Crushing Darkness {863460225187840}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Crushed (Force) {863460225188097}] ()
[00:05:23.391] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:23.392] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (585 energy {836045448940874}) <585>
[00:05:23.783] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[00:05:23.783] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (25)
[00:05:23.784] [@Vexima] [@Vexima] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[00:05:23.785] [@Vexima] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (1029* energy {836045448940874}) <1029>

The two ticks are 5:23.392 - 5:22.426 = 0.966 s which is still way slower than the 1/(1.0873) = 0.9127 s I'm expecting but more importantly I couldn't apply the new FL until 5:23.785 so 5:23.785 - 5:22.426 = 1.359 s.

I haven't checked if anyone specifically said this already but it seems that a non-hasted FL is ticking over the course of the LB-hasted channel time so the ticks are ~ 1s but you can't start your next FL till ~1.5 s anyway so simply put its 2 ticks over the 1.5 s channel time. This should be dps neutral (in terms of the cut-off FL so your still getting LB's dps boost on the first one) and I'm going to guess that the alacrity discrepancies Kaedis saw is server lag since the numbers I'm seeing from the log also never stay consistent and are just on average a teensy bit longer than the times the stats calculate to be.

Btw I mentioned this in the simcraft thread that this event seems similar to the Sniper's Series of Shots alacrity bug and was told (rightly so) to actually look at the data before i say crazy things. This really does seem like the same thing. The ticks are not occurring any faster while the channel time is getting cut shorter (by LB's haste effect in our case versus the sniper talented alacrity buff in their case). Theoretically, you could be screwed down to only 1 tick occuring if the channel time is < 1s. (As in +50% activation speed so not going to happen lol)

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 05-19-2012 11:22 AM

Well, first off, I need to correct your activation speed formula. The formula for cast time is:

ModifiedCastTime = BaseCastTime * (1 - ActivationSpeed%)

You're using the WoW haste formula, completely different scaling (ie. 50% haste in WoW = 33% reduction in cast time. 50% activation speed in SWTOR = 50% reduction in cast time). This doesn't cause too much difference in the numbers, since you only have 8.7% Activation Speed, but it's best to be accurate.

Quote:This should be dps neutral (in terms of the cut-off FL so your still getting LB's dps boost on the first one) and I'm going to guess that the alacrity discrepancies Kaedis saw is server lag since the numbers I'm seeing from the log also never stay consistent and are just on average a teensy bit longer than the times the stats calculate to be.

Note, it is DPS neutral unless you're in a force-limited encounter, in which case double-dipping becomes force-negative, as you're effectively spending an extra half-FL worth of force for those 2 ticks.

Naw, when I replied (and somewhat snapped at you) in the SimC thread, I thought you were implying that the alacrity clipping effect applied even on regular casts or single-dip Barrage casts, which it most certainly does not. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it applied to the second hasted FL, however. At this point, though, it's largely irrelevant, as it's pretty definitive that with Barrage working as it currently does, double-dipping FL is to be avoided anyway.

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - pichon - 06-02-2012 02:21 AM

Ok, so I get that the general consensus is:
1) To avoid "double-dipping" FL in hybrid.
2) Hybrid benefits the most from Armor debuffs
3) It is NOT recommended to spec a point out of LB into Crit

With all this, I have a hard time understanding what makes hybrid the better of all 3 dps specs? Would hasted FL be better than say Madness' extra dot; creeping terror? Then if hasted FL is so good, why wouldn't lightning be the stronger spec?

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 06-02-2012 03:20 AM

Hybrid isn't better anymore. In fact, they are damn-near dead-even (I need to update the OP to reflect this still). All 3 specs are within a half of a percent of each other, according to the last SimC I saw. Lightning possesses the most on-demand burst (and is by far the most force-efficient), Madness has the best multi-DoTing potential (but has the worst force-endurance), and hybrid has the simplest rotation and scales the best with armor debuffs. It's also very much a hybrid of benefits: it has better force-endurance than Lightning, but worse than Madness; it has better burst than Madness but worse than Lightning; and it has better mobile dps than Lightning, but worse than Madness.

However, to answer your concerns, Lightning Barrage is better than Creeping Terror in overall DPS contribution. Actually, technically, it's almost precisely equal to Creeping Terror + 2% crit. The reason Lightning isn't better is because it's held back by the low coefficient on Lightning Strike, the relatively low damage of TB (compared to its casting time and lack of crit scaling), and the high level of complexity inherent in the rotation.

HM Kephes - pichon - 06-02-2012 04:00 AM

Ok, lets talk about the HM Kephes fight and lightning. I chose lightning for that fight due to its high burst potential and strong AoE for the add phase.
My guild blows bloodthirst, adrenals, relics and CDs on the first time the walker comes down. One issue I've been having with lightning is timing CDs the right way in order to maximize damage, something I know is covered on the OP, which is why I wanted to ask specifically for the kephess fight;
When the walker is down, how would I maximize my dps in the little amount of time allotted? Which CDs should I use and when should I use them? What have you found to be the best burst damage rotation for that "phase"?

PS: Which relic would you use in this fight, "Proc" one or "power use" one? I've been going with "power use"

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 06-02-2012 04:43 AM

I personal use both the power and proc one, rather than the matrix cube. However, if you're trying to maximize burst, use the power one over the proc if you want to use the cube in the second slot.

As for burst on that section, first off fish for a Lightning Storm proc on the 3 adds before that (and the explosion droid). Apply Affliction to the walker as the person is being pulled up (the walker will still be immune to damage at that point, but not to debuffs). This sets up your TB. Pop your relic and adrenal and cast TB such that it lands just after the walker gains the debuff (this occurs about half a second to a second after the person reaches the top of the rope, so start casting once they hit the top or just before). Hit Recklessness and drop CL (if you got a proc), then hit Polarity Shift and drop an FL (even if Barrage hasn't proced, it's a better use of a Recklessness charge than LS or CD). Drop CD, then start spamming LS, using TB when it comes off cooldown and CL and FL if you get procs in the damage window.

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - pichon - 06-02-2012 01:19 PM

(06-02-2012 04:43 AM)Kaedis Wrote:  I personal use both the power and proc one, rather than the matrix cube. However, if you're trying to maximize burst, use the power one over the proc if you want to use the cube in the second slot.

I thought it was discussed earlier in the thread that matrix cube was better than power use relic on standard fights.

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Almighty - 06-02-2012 03:32 PM

Anyone knows what the current BiS is for Sorcerers?

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Sith_Happens - 06-02-2012 04:19 PM

(06-02-2012 03:32 PM)Almighty Wrote:  Anyone knows what the current BiS is for Sorcerers?

There's a thread for that. Nearest I can tell, the short answer is no, at least for Campaign/Black Hole gear level (you can find the likely Rakata-level BiS mid-way through the thread).

RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 06-02-2012 10:04 PM

Quote:I thought it was discussed earlier in the thread that matrix cube was better than power use relic on standard fights.

For an extended fight, correct. However, for a burst fight, the Power relic is definitely superior to the cube.