+- SWTOR Mechanics Forums (http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums)
+-- Forum: Class Discussion (/forum-7.html)
+--- Forum: Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular (/forum-9.html)
+--- Thread: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium (/thread-947.html)
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 05-13-2012 08:35 AM
Update: This is precisely what is happening, but 1.2.3 did not fix the issue. Here's the details from my combat log:
Code:
[16:36:51.508] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] ()
[16:36:51.508] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (522* internal {836045448940876}) <522>
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (27)
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:53.507] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:53.507] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:54.005] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:54.005] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:54.505] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (295 internal {836045448940876}) <295>
[16:36:54.505] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (865* energy {836045448940874}) <865>
[16:36:54.506] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] ()
[16:36:54.508] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[16:36:54.508] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (27)
[16:36:54.509] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:54.509] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:55.502] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:55.502] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (865* energy {836045448940874}) <865>
[16:36:57.498] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (295 internal {836045448940876}) <295>As you can see, the first channel received all 4 ticks, the second only 2, separated by 0.993 seconds. This is actually even more problematic than it appears, as I have 5.16% Alacrity, so those ticks should have been 0.948 seconds apart. In fact, the first channel is occurring over 1.596 seconds, rather than the 1.423 seconds it should have been.
Verdict is that double-dipping floats between being dps-neutral and a dps loss. Recommend against it. This seriously erodes the benefit of the hybrid spec.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - nish - 05-13-2012 10:43 AM
If swapping specs would be higher dps, could someone say roughly what percentage increase this would be? I was under the impression that hybrid was better even with double dipping disabled. I'm getting decent dps now so I'm not too concerned.
On another note, should I be clipping my tk throw for force in balance and mind crush? I get the impression I should definitely not with mind crush. Can anyone explain what is best?
Thanks,
-Nish
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Sith_Happens - 05-13-2012 11:48 AM
(05-13-2012 10:43 AM)nish Wrote: If swapping specs would be higher dps, could someone say roughly what percentage increase this would be? I was under the impression that hybrid was better even with double dipping disabled. I'm getting decent dps now so I'm not too concerned.
According to the SimC numbers from the previous thread that I then cited on page 10 of this one, Madness is a fraction of a percent above Hybrid under the current conditions, while Lightning is an even smaller fraction of a percent below Hybrid. So bascially, just use whichever of the three specs you like best.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - nish - 05-13-2012 12:08 PM
(05-13-2012 11:48 AM)Sith_Happens Wrote:(05-13-2012 10:43 AM)nish Wrote: If swapping specs would be higher dps, could someone say roughly what percentage increase this would be? I was under the impression that hybrid was better even with double dipping disabled. I'm getting decent dps now so I'm not too concerned.
According to the SimC numbers from the previous thread that I then cited on page 10 of this one, Madness is a fraction of a percent above Hybrid under the current conditions, while Lightning is an even smaller fraction of a percent below Hybrid. So bascially, just use whichever of the three specs you like best.
So, madness gets the root but lightning gets a lot more force. I can say for sure that double dotting with a hybrid spec gets me 100 more dps on jarg and sorno. I have force issues, though, towards the mid/end of the fight and ask for heals so I can consume. Maybe lightning is the wave of the future for these double dotting situations.
P.S. If anyone could answer my question with dot clipping tk throw (mind crush, weaken mind and force in balance please do).
Thanks,
-Nish
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 05-14-2012 02:37 AM
Clipping TkT is generally strongly discouraged. Unlike WoW, we don't have an accurate tick meter on the cast bars, so reliably interrupting directly after the 3rd tick is close to impossible. Generally best to just finish the channel.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Zia - 05-14-2012 04:33 AM
(05-13-2012 12:08 PM)nish Wrote: I can say for sure that double dotting with a hybrid spec gets me 100 more dps on jarg and sorno. I have force issues, though, towards the mid/end of the fight and ask for heals so I can consume.
I have started seeing this issue since my 8m started EC Hard Modes. About 70% into the fight I am having severe force issues.
I use consumption at regular intervals in my rotation and I think that is the only thing that gets me so far into the fight before my force situation becomes problematic to my rotation.
Is anyone else seeing this with the Hybrid spec? And have you found any rotation modifications that have helped you combat this issue?
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Wugan - 05-14-2012 06:00 AM
I can't say I'm having real force issues in the Hybrid spec (in 16 hard modes). At most I have to Noble Sacrifice once or twice, and usually not at all. Doing things like shielding myself more often, refreshing Weaken Mind too early, or using a lot of Project is usually what leads to lower force for me. Just following the rotation I'm generally ok.
I do however notice pretty severe force issues in a full Balance spec. Noble Sacrifice during down times is definitely required in order to DPS the full fight. In some fights you can fit it in where you aren't using those GCDs (Kephess for example), but in others you're taking a DPS loss to do so (Battle Tanks). I found I was doing about the same DPS in full Balance as I was in Hybrid, with a lot more things to watch in terms of force and a second DoT, so I'm back to Hybrid for now.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - odlaw - 05-14-2012 08:27 AM
(05-13-2012 08:35 AM)Kaedis Wrote: Update: This is precisely what is happening, but 1.2.3 did not fix the issue. Here's the details from my combat log:
Code:
[16:36:51.508] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] ()
[16:36:51.508] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (522* internal {836045448940876}) <522>
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (27)
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:52.909] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:53.507] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:53.507] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:54.005] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:54.005] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:54.505] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (295 internal {836045448940876}) <295>
[16:36:54.505] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (865* energy {836045448940874}) <865>
[16:36:54.506] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Lightning Barrage {1960420642390016}] ()
[16:36:54.508] [@Korah] [@Korah] [Force Lightning {808252715565056}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] ()
[16:36:54.508] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Spend {836045448945473}: Force {836045448938502}] (27)
[16:36:54.509] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:54.509] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (489 energy {836045448940874}) <489>
[16:36:55.502] [@Korah] [@Korah] [] [Restore {836045448945476}: Force {836045448938502}] (6)
[16:36:55.502] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Shocked {808252715565342}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (865* energy {836045448940874}) <865>
[16:36:57.498] [@Korah] [Operations Training Dummy {2857785339412480}] [Affliction (Force) {808192586023173}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (295 internal {836045448940876}) <295>
As you can see, the first channel received all 4 ticks, the second only 2, separated by 0.993 seconds. This is actually even more problematic than it appears, as I have 5.16% Alacrity, so those ticks should have been 0.948 seconds apart. In fact, the first channel is occurring over 1.596 seconds, rather than the 1.423 seconds it should have been.
Verdict is that double-dipping floats between being dps-neutral and a dps loss. Recommend against it. This seriously erodes the benefit of the hybrid spec.
First off, thank you for the research into this, this is valuable information.
I have a couple ideas that I am going to throw out there and not only get feedback on what others think, but if I have time later without wife aggro, also test these theories for myself.
Theory 1: Keep the 1/12/28 build and when Psychic Projection (Lightning Barrage) procs, use the first full 4 hasted cast, then simply move to cancel out the second. If the first cast is benefiting from the full 4 ticks at double speed, then our DPS should slightly benefit as well, no? Once we move after casting the first hasted proc, the proc goes away, as anyone who has dodged anything in any fight while casting while the proc is up can tell you.
Theory 2: Spec to 2/11/28, adding to Penetrating Light (Seeping Darkness) and removing 1 point from Psychic Projection (Lightning Barrage). Let's face it, since the proc is either DPS Neutral or even DPS Negative, why not knock the proc down to 50% of Weaken Mind (Affliction) ticks and take an extra 1% crit? The same idea from Theory 1 would apply, move after first hasted cast, and continue.
Theory 3: Kind of obvious where this pattern is going, use a 3/10/28 build and receive 3% to Crit. If we look at the overall from 1/12/28, we're really receiving a total of 2% added overall crit. With that being said, we could possibly re-mod to accommodate slightly for Alacrity (if it's on the low end) or any other stat that we may be weak in. Sure, it won't be too much, since removing just one crit enhancement usually knocks us down by 1-2%, but it still leaves a little wiggle room to up Alacrity, for example, and channel TK Throw (FL) just a bit faster.
I gave the 3/31/7 build a try over the weekend, using my Ops dummy on my ship and taking about an hour to really get comfortable and nail the timing of the rotation, and I have to say, even with the Double Dipping fiasco, I still yield 300-400 more DPS and a CONSIDERABLE amount MORE overall damage (in Hybrid) when running 10 timed 5 minute tests (as opposed to 3/31/7).
Any and all constructive criticism is more than welcome to the above suggested "theories", and again, if I have some time tonight to play around with it I will, and I will post any significant (or non-significant) results here.
Waldo
:EDIT: About 2 minutes after posting this I read Kaedis's (I almost typed Kor, I am so used to reading posts under that name!) post here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Simulationcraft-for-Sage-Sorcerer?page=22 and am wondering if I am doing something horrifically wrong in the Telekinetic (Lightning) build. I am guessing that Xenofire is in top tier gear, however even then, that much DPS in Telekinetic (Lightning) is incredible. I am wondering if this is on a multiple DoT fight such as Zorn and Toth, or if this is single target.
I followed the rotation (and all the "ifs" involved) posted in the Compendium to a tee, and sure, based on certain RNG my bursts were considerably high, however, my level out was significantly lower than Hybrid.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - Sith_Happens - 05-14-2012 09:06 AM
(05-14-2012 08:27 AM)odlaw Wrote: :EDIT: About 2 minutes after posting this I read Kaedis's (I almost typed Kor, I am so used to reading posts under that name!) post here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Simulationcraft-for-Sage-Sorcerer?page=22 and am wondering if I am doing something horrifically wrong in the Telekinetic (Lightning) build. I am guessing that Xenofire is in top tier gear, however even then, that much DPS in Telekinetic (Lightning) is incredible. I am wondering if this is on a multiple DoT fight such as Zorn and Toth, or if this is single target.
It's while stacking an obscene number of armor debuffs on the boss. I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that Telekinetics has the highest proportion of armor-mitigated damage by a good margin, which means it scales the best with armor debuffs.
RE: Sorcerer|Sage DPS Compendium - odlaw - 05-14-2012 09:23 AM
(05-14-2012 09:06 AM)Sith_Happens Wrote: It's while stacking an obscene number of armor debuffs on the boss. I might be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that Telekinetics has the highest proportion of armor-mitigated damage by a good margin, which means it scales the best with armor debuffs.
This would explain why I alone against my Ops Dummy was producing less with Tele than Hybrid. I do not consider these situations (debuffs) sometimes and I am happy that there are people here to remind me of such things that alone I fail to take into consideration.
We run our raids with a fairly balanced (class) team, this being said I am sure that boss debuffs "should" be maximized and will run with the spec this week on some older Nightmare content (trying to gear up some newer 50's / recruits) and see how it goes, if I see some improvement then I will definitely consider running HM EC in Tele rather than Hybrid.
Thanks for reminding me of something I should have accounted for to begin with! Sometimes my brain is a little too overactive, I over think, and therefore don't consider some of the simpler avenues, such as debuffs...
