Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - Printable Version

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RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - Kaedis - 06-30-2012 01:45 PM

First off, try using step intervals of 10 rather than 1, makes the calculations much more sane.

That said, I'm not sure I understand it myself. SimC has consistently been showing Willpower as ~10% higher than Power for ages, though, and I've yet to find where it might be miscalculating. I assume it has to do with non-linear damage increases from procs, but I'm not sure.

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - hatterson - 07-01-2012 03:07 AM

(06-30-2012 09:10 AM)dipstik Wrote:  I have an issue with the staple that willpower is 10% better than power.

For DPS:

willpower gives 0.2 power gives 0.23. with buff and skill points willpower gives 0.222, giving power a 0.008 lead.
when we throw in that crit increases damage by crit times surge and the amount of crit you get per point of willpower I find that c(w+1)-c(w) gives from 6E-5 (at willpower 0 to 1) and 3.5E-5 at willpower 2000. which is too little to compete with the bonus damage increase from power (by 1.5 orders of magnitude). this assumes a surge rating of 275.

please tell me what i am missing.

I think your calculation of the value of crit from willpower is off as it appears you're only taking the value of the crit acting on the bonus damage from the additional willpower as opposed to all the bonus damage you currently have.

When comparing X bonus damage vs Y bonus damage and Z crit % I must also include the effect that the crit will have on all my other bonus damage already accumulated, not simply on Y. If you start at naked, then your math would be correct, however once you take into account that you already have a large amount of stats, it's no longer valid.

Assuming 35% crit, 2000 willpower, 75% surge, 850 existing bonus damage (just some random numbers). Baseline would be 850*(1+(.35*.75)) = 1073.125 equivalence points.

An extra 50 power will get you an extra 11.5 bonus damage bringing us to a total of 861.5 bonus damage or 1087.644 equivalence points

An extra 50 willpower, equals an extra 50*1.05*1.06 = 55.65 willpower which would give you 11.13 bonus damage giving you 861.13 bonus damage total. It also increases your crit rate by .276% Thus you would have 861.13*(1+(.35.276*.75)) = 1088.959

In the case of power the increase was 14.519 EP and for willpower it was 15.843. Thus the value of willpower over power in this example was just over 9%

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - Kaedis - 07-01-2012 04:24 PM

Quote:An extra 50 power will get you an extra 11.5 bonus damage bringing us to a total of 861.5 bonus damage or 1087.644 equivalence points

An extra 50 willpower, equals an extra 50*1.05*1.06 = 55.65 willpower which would give you 11.13 bonus damage giving you 861.13 bonus damage total. It also increases your crit rate by .276% Thus you would have 861.13*(1+(.35.276*.75)) = 1088.959

Will of the Sith and Mark of Power stack additively, not multiplicatively. Also, don't forget to include Unnatural Might, which amplifies the Bonus boost by 5% in both cases.

With this, 50 Power gives you 12.075 Bonus Damage, for a total of 1088.37 EP, while 50 Willpower gives 11.655 Bonus Damage and 0.2605% Crit, for a total of 1089.52. This reduces the benefit to 7.5%. That said, note that Bonus Damage comprises only about 2/3rds of the damage of an ability, and the remaining third scales with Crit but not Power, amplifying the benefit beyond the calculated EP values (to around 9.1%, specifically).

However, this did help me find the error that left me confused above (as I was finding the same thing from my calculations, Power > Willpower): my spreadsheet didn't automatically include MoP and WotS (it assumed the Willpower I was putting in was post-buff, ie. from the character sheet). Without the 11% boost Willpower gains, it falls behind Power (by about 1.8%), but that 11% boost is all that's needed to boost it ahead of Power again.

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - dipstik - 07-02-2012 08:35 AM

After thinking about it longer I realized there is also a gain in that the willpower that you use for crit is crit taht you can use for power.

and thank you for noting that non bonus dmg/healing gets boosted by crit and not power...

I have been trying to find out where power might be more worthwhile than willpower... to me the knee in crit form willpower looks like its at around 2500 willpower... but that does not mean thats where the willpoer=power eqality happens.

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - Kaedis - 07-02-2012 08:59 AM

Quote:I have been trying to find out where power might be more worthwhile than willpower... to me the knee in crit form willpower looks like its at around 2500 willpower... but that does not mean thats where the willpoer=power eqality happens.

When I did some rough testing back just before 1.2, it showed as being at around 9k Willpower. However, those have at least quadratic error compounding, so the error bars on that value are rather large. I can say, however, that it's more than is available in game, and more than will be available in game for at least a few more gear tiers.

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - hatterson - 07-02-2012 11:28 PM

(07-01-2012 04:24 PM)Kaedis Wrote:
Quote:An extra 50 power will get you an extra 11.5 bonus damage bringing us to a total of 861.5 bonus damage or 1087.644 equivalence points

An extra 50 willpower, equals an extra 50*1.05*1.06 = 55.65 willpower which would give you 11.13 bonus damage giving you 861.13 bonus damage total. It also increases your crit rate by .276% Thus you would have 861.13*(1+(.35.276*.75)) = 1088.959
Will of the Sith and Mark of Power stack additively, not multiplicatively. Also, don't forget to include Unnatural Might, which amplifies the Bonus boost by 5% in both cases.
<snip>
That said, note that Bonus Damage comprises only about 2/3rds of the damage of an ability

Ahh, yes, I forgot about the additive stacking and Unnatural Might. And yes, I intentionally left off the extra ability damage. My math wasn't really to show that Willpower is x% better than power, but just to show where the calculation was off.

Obviously the exact percentage varies with specific gearing (higher surge level weights willpower higher, higher willpower weights willpower lower) so without pulling up the full BiS numbers and getting the current percent I think the best guess of "9ish %" is good enough and it answers the fundamental question of if a Resolve Augment is better than an Overkill Augment which is virtually the only direct 1 for 1 willpower for power trade we have available.

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - hatterson - 07-03-2012 01:01 AM

Going back to the discussion on relics, here's my math. Let me know if it's accurate.

Assumptions:

- 1 Power = 1 EP
- 1 Crit = 1 EP
- 1 Willpower = 1.09 EP
- 1 EP = .42 DPS This was based on 1.2
- 1 EP = .345 DPS - Tested on rough 1.3 BiS (number can vary based on spec/gear from 3.3 to 3.55)
- Fights are static DPS with no burn phase. Value of on use relic is simply the average of the benifit it provides.
- Proc relics will proc every 5.86s. (this is from hundreds of thousands of SimC runs)
- Augments are ignored as all relics should benefit the same
- Only relevant stats will be compared. Endurance is not weighted at all, you shouldn't need it for DPSing. If you're concerned about it, you're not BiS.
[EDIT] - Assume 32% crit and 75% surge [/EDIT]

Things not calculated, but deserve consideration:
- On use relics have their value increased when used in conjunction with Adrenals or other buffs such as Polarity Shift or Bloodthirst
- On use relics have their value increased when on a fight with a burn phase or some other form of "need DPS now" mechanic (SOA, Kephess bombers, etc.)

Relics to compare:

Champion Relic of Boundless Ages (ChRBA): 97 power
Battlemaster Relic of Boundless Ages (BRBA): 103 power
Warhero Relic of Boundless Ages (WRBA): 113 power
Rakata Relic of Boundless Ages (RRBA): 290 power for 30 seconds every every 120 seconds = 72.5 power
Campaign Relic of Boundless Ages (CaRBA): 315 power for 30 seconds every 120 seconds = 78.75 power
Matric Cube M7-R3 (MC): 66 willpower + 27 crit
Dark Energy Surge (DES): 30% chance to deal 168 internal damage, 4.5s internal cooldown
Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance (CRDR): 30% chance to deal 184 internal damage, 4.5s internal cooldown

Relic NameWillpowerPowerCritEPDPS
ChRBA09709740.74 - 33.465
BRBA0103010343.26 - 35.535
WRBA0113011347.46 - 38.985
RRBA072.5072.530.45 - 25.013
CaRBA078.75078.7533.075 - 27.169
MC6602798.9441.55 - 34.134
DES w/ 5.86s proc00035.55
CRDR w/ 5.86s proc00038.94

The only real close value is between the Rakata Relic of Boundless Ages and Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance. The numbers say the Campaign proc relic is *slightly* ahead, but given that the Rakata use relic can easily be triggered in conjunction with other cooldowns it should make up the .22 DPS differece, therefore I'll place it ahead.

So the priority should be:

Warhero Relic of Boundless Ages > Battlemaster Relic of Boundless Ages > Matric Cube M7-R3 > Champion Relic of Boundless Ages > Campaign Relic of Boundless Age > Rakata Relic of Boundless Ages > Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance > Dark Energy Surge

EDIT BASED ON CRITS: I hadn't calculated that the proc relics can crit, which obviously impacts their value. I'll assume 32% raid-buffed crit and 75% raid buffed surge which is roughly what 1.3 BiS is

That would mean the expected damage of a proc (and thus DPS) should be multiplied by 1.24. Which would put the value of the proc relics above both of the on-use relics, but still below all of the static power relics and the matrix cube

Additional Edit based on having bad number for EP -> DPS conversion. New numbers are posted.

The Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance and the Warhero Relic of Boundless Ages are extremely close and can switch back and forth depending on specific gearing.

Priority list
• Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance ~= Warhero Relic of Boundless Ages
• Battlemaster Relic of Boundless Ages
• Matric Cube M7-R3
• Dark Energy Surge ~= Champion Relic of Boundless Ages
• Campaign Relic of Boundless Age
• Rakata Relic of Boundless Ages

The biggest thing to note is that Dark Energy Surge and Campaign Relic of Dark Radiance share a cooldown so you should never, under any circumstances, have both equipped.

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - nish - 07-03-2012 12:13 PM

Remember too that a campaign proc internal/elemental relic will have more endurance so 1 of each proc and war hero would probably be best in a lot of cases (at the worst I saw no loss of dps with a proc relic but someone mentioned losing 2 or so).

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - hatterson - 07-03-2012 02:20 PM

(07-03-2012 12:13 PM)nish Wrote:  Remember too that a campaign proc internal/elemental relic will have more endurance so 1 of each proc and war hero would probably be best in a lot of cases (at the worst I saw no loss of dps with a proc relic but someone mentioned losing 2 or so).

Yea, Campaign internal proc + WH is similar or very slightly better than WHx2 They're BiS currently.

The only other case would be to add a Campaign Relic of Boundless Age for fights where you need a controlled DPS burst, but that's situational.

RE: Sorcerer DPS BIS discussion - DonJuansen - 07-03-2012 07:48 PM

This is my first post, and i would like to use it to thank the theorycrafters for there insights and efforts to explain SWTOR mechanics.

I read this thread with much interest and with 1.3 live it is nice know which relics are currently BiS. Time to get my PvP on! ;-)

Apart from the kudos, i'd like to share my attempt at 1.3 BiS. You can find it in the wishlist of my Ask Mr Robot profile here. I'm planning on using this for both healing and dps, wonder whether you agree on it.

Also, I'd like to test my damage output on operation dummies, which parser is currently the most accurate?