+- SWTOR Mechanics Forums (http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums)
+-- Forum: General (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Game Mechanics (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Threat conversation (/thread-786.html)
RE: Threat conversation - Sturrm - 05-02-2012 05:37 PM
(05-02-2012 12:05 PM)GeeDee Wrote: Great info guys. I found my way here doing a search on Juggs Threat .
I'm having the same issues on the 2nd fight in EC HM with Threat.
I play a Sith Juggs (Full Immortal atm)
Full Rakata (with 5 augments belt/bracers/pants/saber/1 implant)
I almost always start on the right side, with a marauder and a sniper. I guard the Marauder however by the time DD hits I'll often lose aggro right after to the marauder which causes the 2 people who took the DD to instantly die, obviously making a taunt after that rather useless. I fear using my regular taunt a head of time because the tank swap comes almost right after DDs. Most know that's not that far into the fight. To counter this from happening they are having to slow their damage until after the tank swap happens.
After doing a search on this I'm getting the feeling I'm not the only one who's having this problem. Does anyone have any tips that could help me from losing aggro before that first tank swap? Someone else mentioned it here but with such a tight enrage timer in that 2nd fight every little bit of dps counts.
My typical rotation is as follows:
Saber Throw > Force Charge > Smash > Force Scream >Sundering Armor > Crushing Blow > Backhand > Ravage
followed by Retaliation or Vicious Slash and once cooldowns pop for the above mentioned I try to fit them back into the rotation .
I've posted this on other forums with people suggesting that I move FS and Smashing to the end of the rotation (which makes a lot of sense since at the beginning of the fight I'm really not taking much damage to begin with . I have roughly 24k hp in raids atm). What are people using for rotations?
And are people using more hybrid specs to build on threat or are most remaining in the cookie cutter Immortal spec?
Thanks for any advice I get
-GD
I play full immortal and If you are having trouble opening that fight, I recommend you go into the fight using a Strength Stim, and to pop a Power adrenal before you start your first rotation. If you feel that you might be getting behind, use your aoe taunt (dont touch your single target taunt, since like you mentioned, you need it for the swap).
RE: Threat conversation - Caeden - 05-02-2012 11:40 PM
I typically open with saber throw to charge to Crushing Blow to backhand to sundering then smash/scream/ravage.
I find ravage does really good threat to help go and blow my AoE taunt right after that.
Crushing blow at the start with a sundering assault closeby gets your 5 stacks up quickly that lets your next attacks hit that much harder.
RE: Threat conversation - Coriolis - 05-03-2012 01:17 AM
Yeah you definetly want crushing first after charge, followed by backhand if you're still having aggro issues. Use enrage and delay your sundering strikes for more damaging moves if you have to. Also you can use your taunt, so long as it comes off c/d or you have the aoe taunt as backup, you'll be fine since you'll charge the other tank anyways. Still using aoe taunt for aggro and single taunt for switch is better.
Finally if your other tank does more aggro then you, switch who attacks who initially. Loosing aggro on the fire tank is not as fatal. And after the first switch it should be a non-issue anyways.
RE: Threat conversation - iakona - 05-03-2012 04:43 AM
(05-02-2012 12:05 PM)GeeDee Wrote: Great info guys. I found my way here doing a search on Juggs Threat .
I'm having the same issues on the 2nd fight in EC HM with Threat.
I play a Sith Juggs (Full Immortal atm)
Full Rakata (with 5 augments belt/bracers/pants/saber/1 implant)
I almost always start on the right side, with a marauder and a sniper. I guard the Marauder however by the time DD hits I'll often lose aggro right after to the marauder which causes the 2 people who took the DD to instantly die, obviously making a taunt after that rather useless. I fear using my regular taunt a head of time because the tank swap comes almost right after DDs. Most know that's not that far into the fight. To counter this from happening they are having to slow their damage until after the tank swap happens.
After doing a search on this I'm getting the feeling I'm not the only one who's having this problem. Does anyone have any tips that could help me from losing aggro before that first tank swap? Someone else mentioned it here but with such a tight enrage timer in that 2nd fight every little bit of dps counts.
My typical rotation is as follows:
Saber Throw > Force Charge > Smash > Force Scream >Sundering Armor > Crushing Blow > Backhand > Ravage
followed by Retaliation or Vicious Slash and once cooldowns pop for the above mentioned I try to fit them back into the rotation .
I've posted this on other forums with people suggesting that I move FS and Smashing to the end of the rotation (which makes a lot of sense since at the beginning of the fight I'm really not taking much damage to begin with . I have roughly 24k hp in raids atm). What are people using for rotations?
And are people using more hybrid specs to build on threat or are most remaining in the cookie cutter Immortal spec?
Thanks for any advice I get
-GD
We've been running into the same issue on the 2nd boss in hard mode, regardless of who we have tanking (we use a Shadow and a Vanguard). We have 3 Commando DPS and my Sentinel (Watchman spec), and every time my Sentinel starts the fight on Stormcaller, I draw aggro right around the time DD hits, usually right after, so our 2 DPS get one-shot when I don't have time to hit my threat drop. We've tried several times with each tank on Stormcaller and with me popping my threat drop at various times, but no matter what we tried, I'd always pull aggro at some point--usually the exact wrong moment--and wipe the raid.
To work around this, I start on Firebrand and one of the other DPS stands on Firebrand while attacking Stormcaller, then we swap right after the first DD. After that point, I usually don't pull threat again as long as I'm guarded by whichever tank is on Stormcaller, and we can still beat the enrage timer since we don't really lose any DPS. The problem probably is a combination of my Sentinel being the best geared character in our raid and Sentinels in general being OP in PvE.
RE: Threat conversation - Olos - 05-04-2012 12:49 AM
Yea we were having issues with threat on that fight and that fight only for the first couple weeks. I think it's a combination of dps being able to stand still, dps all being in melle range so pulling at 110% vs 130%, tanks having to save taunts, and then on stormcaller, tanks having to move back a couple steps during DD(more of an issue for juggs).
We ended up switching me (powertech) to storm, andi pop my dps cooldown and burn threat as much as i can, vent heat, and then do it again. Occasionally our mara (with guard) pulls right after DD, but i can use one of my taunts immediately and fix that, and then after the first swap there really isnt an issue.
On any fight though, you want to make sure you are front-loading as much threat as you can. The first several seconds are crucial, and after that, taunts can be used to bolster your threat. For jugg, you'd definitely I think want crushing blow and backhand in there immediately after the throw/charge, and then you can settle in to a more normal rotation. Popping your taunt early enough that it's up again for the switch.
RE: Threat conversation - Genshen - 05-04-2012 06:56 AM
(05-02-2012 05:37 PM)Sturrm Wrote: I play full immortal and If you are having trouble opening that fight, I recommend you go into the fight using a Strength Stim, and to pop a Power adrenal before you start your first rotation. If you feel that you might be getting behind, use your aoe taunt (dont touch your single target taunt, since like you mentioned, you need it for the swap).
Get another class that can taunt. Jugg, PT, Sin DPS. Or do it with 3 tanks if 16 man. No need to swap that way. Double Destruction cast, DPS taunts Firebrand, he casts incinerate, tank taunts back. No damage goes out to the taunting DPS during that short window of DD and Incinerate Armor casts. Easy mode.
About threat, hold off on using your high threat abilities initially on that fight and use them after you AE taunt the first time. What we do:
- Countdown from 5 to 1 and tanks leap and just start building some threat.
- Countdown from 6 to 1 and dps starts.
- 5 secs later both tanks AE taunt and THEN do their high threat abilities.
Neither tank loses agro from there on till end of the fight without tank swaps and no usage of any other taunts. The fight isn't a super fast DPS race as most people think.
RE: Threat conversation - Ashardis - 05-04-2012 10:36 PM
(05-04-2012 06:56 AM)Genshen Wrote: Get another class that can taunt. Jugg, PT, Sin DPS. Or do it with 3 tanks if 16 man. No need to swap that way. Double Destruction cast, DPS taunts Firebrand, he casts incinerate, tank taunts back. No damage goes out to the taunting DPS during that short window of DD and Incinerate Armor casts. Easy mode.
I think this is a bad idea, and I'll explain why below once I've commented on this qoute :
(05-04-2012 06:56 AM)Genshen Wrote: About threat, hold off on using your high threat abilities initially on that fight and use them after you AE taunt the first time.(...)
Why on Denova would you hold off your high threat abilities until after you taunt??
When you AoE taunt as a tank while you have the aggro, the effect is that it forces the target to attack you for 6 seconds and instantly gives you //10% - my mistake, pls ignore// 30% more threat.
So in your case.. if you don't use your high threat abilities, you won't get much use of the 30% bonus threat, since the base on which those 30% are added simply isn't strong.
The main reason your tanks don't loose aggro is that your dps are holding back a little at the start.
What I do is use ALL my big threat moves (as an assasin tank, there's a very nice 12-13s duration combo of moves) and THEN I do an AoE taunt by the time the first DD is casting or there abouts.
//In reference to my comment about tank swapping above, I think tanks should swap since the tanks then can taunt while at range = a 30% threat gain.
In theory this is also possible while standing on the tank itself, but it can be tricky. - It's not hard for the tanks to swap positions, especially if they're juggs - but if a tank gets Incinerate Armor things can get "interesting" on FB tank. This combined with the threat boost gained, allowing the dps to nuke to the max, makes tank swapping a better choice as I see it.
This is wrong, pls ignore//
Another "trick" is to let melee stand at max melee range, since they pull aggro at 110% threat when inside the melee threat distance to the boss, but 130% when they're counted as outside. On most bosses it's very possible to stand at max melee range, be able to hit the boss with melee attacks and still count as "ranged" in regards to threat threshold needed to pull aggro.
RE: Threat conversation - Genshen - 05-05-2012 06:35 AM
Try it my way for a couple of attempts on both the taunting/threat abilities, as well as the non tank swap and watch how this encounter becomes trivial. We did it this week while carrying 8 trials on 16 man HM. The encounter isn't a "dps race" if you have solid dps. We still had over a minute left on the enrage timer.
RE: Threat conversation - Dreary - 05-06-2012 03:02 AM
(05-04-2012 06:56 AM)Genshen Wrote:(05-02-2012 05:37 PM)Sturrm Wrote: I play full immortal and If you are having trouble opening that fight, I recommend you go into the fight using a Strength Stim, and to pop a Power adrenal before you start your first rotation. If you feel that you might be getting behind, use your aoe taunt (dont touch your single target taunt, since like you mentioned, you need it for the swap).
Get another class that can taunt. Jugg, PT, Sin DPS. Or do it with 3 tanks if 16 man. No need to swap that way. Double Destruction cast, DPS taunts Firebrand, he casts incinerate, tank taunts back. No damage goes out to the taunting DPS during that short window of DD and Incinerate Armor casts. Easy mode.
About threat, hold off on using your high threat abilities initially on that fight and use them after you AE taunt the first time. What we do:
- Countdown from 5 to 1 and tanks leap and just start building some threat.
- Countdown from 6 to 1 and dps starts.
- 5 secs later both tanks AE taunt and THEN do their high threat abilities.
Neither tank loses agro from there on till end of the fight without tank swaps and no usage of any other taunts. The fight isn't a super fast DPS race as most people think.
Read what Ashardis said, it really does make sense... I find it hard to believe you are sticking to it, even after having time to think about this.
Why on earth would you not have your tanks using their high threat abilities early? Especially if DPS has not started... You are essentially wasting 11 seconds for nearly nothing.
RE: Threat conversation - Genshen - 05-06-2012 03:34 AM
Because I am not convinced taunt works the way people think it does. I could be wrong, but either way, our dps is pushing top numbers and they don't pull off me.