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+--- Thread: Threat conversation (/thread-786.html)
RE: Threat conversation - Kaedis - 02-29-2012 03:52 PM
Tested with a Juggernaut tank against the Tattoine world boss (he applies a 100% armor reduction debuff to himself with 100% uptime, so it negates any armor issues and effects from Sunder Armor). Had Juggernaut cast Sundering Assault 10 times on the boss, then counted how many Lightning Strikes were necessary to pull threat off. Tested with myself in full gear and the tank in nothing but a weapon (so my damage was significantly higher). His Sundering Assaults were hitting for ~550, my Lightning Strikes for ~1150. Pulled threat at range on the 9th cast and the 11th cast on the two tests, which is consistent with current threat understanding. The above stated theory would have indicated a pull at 20 casts (10 * 1.5 threat mult = 15 * 1.3 = 19.5 "threat").
Tested a second time, with gear inverted. Tank had full gear on, and Sundering Assault was hitting for ~850. I has naked, and Lightning Strike was hitting for ~350. Expected pull would be the same, 20 casts in the suggested system. I cast myself until out of force, which was precisely 40 casts, no threat pull. Expected pull under the current understanding would have been at around 45 casts, depending on crits.
I feel I can justifiably conclude that threat mechanics work as we currently understand them to.
RE: Threat conversation - Belaganor - 03-01-2012 12:21 AM
KOR - you rock! Much more patience than I do (and time) in solving the theory.
And...VERY GLAD it's not the case.
RE: Threat conversation - Crosswind - 03-01-2012 01:49 AM
Tip of the hat to KOR.
-Cross
RE: Threat conversation - Ra'ath - 03-01-2012 03:39 AM
Is there any chance you could summarise the current threat understanding? I seem to be getting myself confused reading through all the posts about it, and with the most useless "threat dump" I've ever seen in a game it would be nice to be able to help out the tanks a little beyond stopping DPS. It seems to be damage based, with a multiplier due to tank stance/ability mulitplier (for example, in tank stance, an ability that does 500 damage would produce the threat of a 750 damage attack - and an ability that does a "significant" amount of threat would be higher still)?
Edits are to add extra onto my current understanding.
RE: Threat conversation - Kaedis - 03-01-2012 11:36 AM
Current threat understanding is that all damage done generates an equal amount of threat. Tanks generate 50% more, so 1 damage = 1.5 threat. Healing generates 50% less, so 1 healing = 0.5 threat. Unknown as to whether healing threat is applied equally to all targets, or split between targets as it was in WoW (ie. in WoW, if you were against 5 targets, healing the tank for 10 HP would generate 10*0.5 = 5 threat, split among targets, so 1 threat per target). Threat is pulled at 110% of the current aggro target's threat if the new threat target is in melee range, 130% if they are not.
Still untested whether threat multipliers are additive or multiplicative, though. For example, Wither
Wither
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
Force: -30
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 8 secs
Damage Type: Kinetic
Mirror: Slow Time
Causes up to 5 targets to wither under the weight of the Force, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and decreasing the damage all targets deal by 5%. This ability generates a high amount of threat. Lasts 15 seconds.
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
Force: -30
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 8 secs
Damage Type: Kinetic
Mirror: Slow Time
Causes up to 5 targets to wither under the weight of the Force, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and decreasing the damage all targets deal by 5%. This ability generates a high amount of threat. Lasts 15 seconds.
It is also unknown if there are any static threat factors from applying buffs or any other non-damage non-healing effects.
Taunts instantly set your threat equal to the current aggro target's, as well as force the target to attack you for the duration of the effect. Other players would then need 110% or 130% of your threat (depending on their position) to pull off you after the effect ends.
The only threat reduction effects that currently work properly are Extrication
Extrication
Sith Inquisitor (Sorcerer)
Force: 30
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 60 secs
Mirror: Rescue
Lowers the target's threat by a moderate amount and, if the target is a party member, pulls the target to your location.
Sith Inquisitor (Sorcerer)
Force: 30
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 60 secs
Mirror: Rescue
Lowers the target's threat by a moderate amount and, if the target is a party member, pulls the target to your location.
Intercede
Sith Warrior (Juggernaut)
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Mirror: Guardian Leap
Leaps to a friendly target, reducing his or her damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds.
Sith Warrior (Juggernaut)
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Mirror: Guardian Leap
Leaps to a friendly target, reducing his or her damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds.
Force Camouflage
Jedi Knight (Sentinel)
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 45 secs
Mirror: Force Camouflage
Obscures yourself with the Force, becoming difficult to detect, reducing your threat towards all enemies and increasing movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds. Dealing direct damage ends the effect prematurely.
Jedi Knight (Sentinel)
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 45 secs
Mirror: Force Camouflage
Obscures yourself with the Force, becoming difficult to detect, reducing your threat towards all enemies and increasing movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds. Dealing direct damage ends the effect prematurely.
I think that covers basically all of the known threat mechanics.
RE: Threat conversation - cmf - 03-02-2012 04:18 PM
I thought I'd share the results of my tests, current as of 01/03/2012.
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: Current threat understanding is that all damage done generates an equal amount of threat. Tanks generate 50% more, so 1 damage = 1.5 threat. Healing generates 50% less, so 1 healing = 0.5 threat.
Confirmed
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: Unknown as to whether healing threat is applied equally to all targets, or split between targets as it was in WoW (ie. in WoW, if you were against 5 targets, healing the tank for 10 HP would generate 10*0.5 = 5 threat, split among targets, so 1 threat per target).
Untested
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: Threat is pulled at 110% of the current aggro target's threat if the new threat target is in melee range, 130% if they are not.
Unable to confirm
Tested using a Sith Inquisitor and Khem / Sith Warrior on the Tatooine world boss. One player would build up roughly 100k threat on the boss and the threat required to pull the boss was measured. In every case the attacker required 130% threat to the precision of the particular test to pull argo from the original attacker - that is the final attack that pulled argo from the original attacker crossed the 130% threat threshold.
If you were able to consistently pull threat from the current target at 110% on a particular encounter please let me know.
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: Still untested whether threat multipliers are additive or multiplicative, though. For example, Witherhas a baked-in 50% threat multiplier. It is known whether this means that a tank (+50% threat) would then generate 2 threat for every 1 damage, or 2.25.Wither
Sith Inquisitor (Assassin)
Force: -30
Range: 10m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 8 secs
Damage Type: Kinetic
Mirror: Slow Time
Causes up to 5 targets to wither under the weight of the Force, dealing [<1>] kinetic damage and decreasing the damage all targets deal by 5%. This ability generates a high amount of threat. Lasts 15 seconds.
Confirmed
I was able to confirm that the threat multiplier attached to the Sith Warrior's ability Backhand is multiplicative.
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: It is also unknown if there are any static threat factors from applying buffs or any other non-damage non-healing effects.
Untested
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: Taunts instantly set your threat equal to the current aggro target's, as well as force the target to attack you for the duration of the effect. Other players would then need 110% or 130% of your threat (depending on their position) to pull off you after the effect ends.
Unable to confirm
Tested using a Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior on the Tatooine world boss. The tank would build up roughly 100k threat, stop attacking, taunt, and the threat required to pull argo was measured. Every test was consistent with a threshold of 169% threat required to pull argo after the taunt (1.3*1.3) – that is Taunt appears to set the player's threat level to 130% of the current target.
Additional tests were performed using a Sith Inquisitor and Khem in a mid level dungeon. Khem would build up roughly 15k threat, stop attacking, and taunt three times (all abilities turned off and manually activated). 298% of Khem's original threat was required to pull argo consistent with Taunt functioning as listed above regardless of the mob's current target (1.3*1.3*1.3 = 219.7% original threat after the last taunt with 1.3^4 = 285.61% threat required to pull). Additional tests will be performed at a later time to validate this result.
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: The only threat reduction effects that currently work properly are Extrication, IntercedeExtrication
Sith Inquisitor (Sorcerer)
Force: 30
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 60 secs
Mirror: Rescue
Lowers the target's threat by a moderate amount and, if the target is a party member, pulls the target to your location., and Force CamouflageIntercede
Sith Warrior (Juggernaut)
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Mirror: Guardian Leap
Leaps to a friendly target, reducing his or her damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds.. All others operate at 1/100th their expected potency.Force Camouflage
Jedi Knight (Sentinel)
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 45 secs
Mirror: Force Camouflage
Obscures yourself with the Force, becoming difficult to detect, reducing your threat towards all enemies and increasing movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds. Dealing direct damage ends the effect prematurely.
I think that covers basically all of the known threat mechanics.
Unable to confirm
Tested using a Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior on the Tatooine world boss. The inquisitor built up well over 100k threat following which the tank built up sufficient threat so that a 5% threat drop would pull argo (at the time I was attempting to place an upper bound of the threat dump). When activated Cloud Mind dropped threat following which the Inquisitor continued damaging the world boss until argo was pulled. The additional threat required to pull argo back was consistent with a 25% threat drop. Additional tests will be performed at a later time to validate this result.
RE: Threat conversation - Kaedis - 03-02-2012 05:54 PM
Quote:Tested using a Sith Inquisitor and Khem / Sith Warrior on the Tatooine world boss. One player would build up roughly 100k threat on the boss and the threat required to pull the boss was measured. In every case the attacker required 130% threat to the precision of the particular test to pull argo from the original attacker - that is the final attack that pulled argo from the original attacker crossed the 130% threat threshold.
If you were able to consistently pull threat from the current target at 110% on a particular encounter please let me know.
This is actually notated specifically in the game files, explicitly so before the client.blob field labels in Nodeviewer were removed. I'll try to devise a solid test for it, though.
Quote:Unable to confirm
Tested using a Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior on the Tatooine world boss. The tank would build up roughly 100k threat, stop attacking, taunt, and the threat required to pull argo was measured. Every test was consistent with a threshold of 169% threat required to pull argo after the taunt (1.3*1.3) – that is Taunt appears to set the player's threat level to 130% of the current target.
Additional tests were performed using a Sith Inquisitor and Khem in a mid level dungeon. Khem would build up roughly 15k threat, stop attacking, and taunt three times (all abilities turned off and manually activated). 298% of Khem's original threat was required to pull argo consistent with Taunt functioning as listed above regardless of the mob's current target (1.3*1.3*1.3 = 219.7% original threat after the last taunt with 1.3^4 = 285.61% threat required to pull). Additional tests will be performed at a later time to validate this result.
This behavior was explicitly stated by the devs (in a recent Q&A, if I recall correctly). Doesn't mean it's accurate, but evidence in favor.
Quote:Unable to confirm
Tested using a Sith Inquisitor and Sith Warrior on the Tatooine world boss. The inquisitor built up well over 100k threat following which the tank built up sufficient threat so that a 5% threat drop would pull argo (at the time I was attempting to place an upper bound of the threat dump). When activated Cloud Mind dropped threat following which the Inquisitor continued damaging the world boss until argo was pulled. The additional threat required to pull argo back was consistent with a 25% threat drop. Additional tests will be performed at a later time to validate this result.
My current tests have demonstrated a failure of the threatdrop to actually work as expected. However, my tests assumed a 10% threat pull in melee range, as notated in the game files, so it's possible that's the flaw in my test.
I'll run some tests to verify what I can.
RE: Threat conversation - cmf - 03-04-2012 03:22 PM
A number of updates from recent tests, current as of 03/03/2012:
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: Threat is pulled at 110% of the current aggro target's threat if the new threat target is in melee range, 130% if they are not.
Confirmed
Tested on the Tatooine world boss as well as Commander Ghulil in Black Talon. Players standing within melee range required 110% argo to pull threat while players standing outside melee range required 130%. Melee range however was not synonymous with the melee hit box of the mob on either test. On the Tatooine world boss for example a player needs to be closer than a tool-tip range of 0m to be considered within melee range – standing directly on the bosses targeting reticle was treated as melee range while standing at the tool-tip threshold of 0m was not.
The effect of taunt was observed to differ depending on whether or not the tank was within melee range. Specifically the ability set the tank's threat to that required to pull argo in all cases – either 110% when the tank was within melee range or 130% when he was not.
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: It is also unknown if there are any static threat factors from applying buffs or any other non-damage non-healing effects.
An upper bound on the threat generation of Static Barrier was established of 80 threat per cast. If threat is generated by this effect it is negligible. Additional tests will be performed at a later time to establish a tighter upper bound.
(03-01-2012 11:36 AM)Kor Wrote: The only threat reduction effects that currently work properly are Extrication, IntercedeExtrication
Sith Inquisitor (Sorcerer)
Force: 30
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 60 secs
Mirror: Rescue
Lowers the target's threat by a moderate amount and, if the target is a party member, pulls the target to your location., and Force CamouflageIntercede
Sith Warrior (Juggernaut)
Range: 30m
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 20 secs
Mirror: Guardian Leap
Leaps to a friendly target, reducing his or her damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds.. All others operate at 1/100th their expected potency.Force Camouflage
Jedi Knight (Sentinel)
Activation time: Instant
Cooldown: 45 secs
Mirror: Force Camouflage
Obscures yourself with the Force, becoming difficult to detect, reducing your threat towards all enemies and increasing movement speed by 30% for 4 seconds. Dealing direct damage ends the effect prematurely.
I think that covers basically all of the known threat mechanics.
Confirmed
Based on further tests Cloud Mind appears to function at 1/100th the potency of Extrication – that is Cloud Mind is currently functioning as a 25% threat dump while Extrication is functioning as a 2500% threat dump (effectively 100%). This particular test should be easily repeatable to verify these results in a variety of situations – have one player build up a sufficient amount of threat on one or more targets, stop, apply the threat dump, and have a second player hit the target with as little damage as possible. If anyone is able to construct a repeatable test to demonstrate Extrication/Intercede/Force Camouflage functioning as less than a 100% threat dump please provide details.
RE: Threat conversation - Kaedis - 03-04-2012 06:32 PM
Quote:Based on further tests Cloud Mind appears to function at 1/100th the potency of Extrication – that is Cloud Mind is currently functioning as a 25% threat dump while Extrication is functioning as a 2500% threat dump (effectively 100%). This particular test should be easily repeatable to verify these results in a variety of situations – have one player build up a sufficient amount of threat on one or more targets, stop, apply the threat dump, and have a second player hit the target with as little damage as possible. If anyone is able to construct a repeatable test to demonstrate Extrication/Intercede/Force Camouflage functioning as less than a 100% threat dump please provide details.
....Ooook, this is the exact opposite of the currently understood mechanic. Current understanding was that Cloud Mind et al were 0.25% threat drops, while Force Camo was 25% (then again, as above, the tests I did on this could easily be screwed up by the threat threshold issue). I'm going to go verify this in a few other circumstances to double-check.
RE: Threat conversation - Kaedis - 03-04-2012 06:50 PM
Mechanic confirmed. Had a friend deal ~12k damage to a mob. I cast a single Affliction on the mob for around 2k damage total. Extricated friend, I instantly got threat. Jesus...
Edit: I've also now compiled and cross-posted the information we've uncovered thus far on the official forums, specifically in the General Discussion section, the Tanking section, and the Sorcerer section (since that section's kinda my baby).