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+--- Thread: Threat conversation (/thread-786.html)
RE: Threat conversation - Ashardis - 05-06-2012 07:00 AM
(05-05-2012 06:35 AM)Genshen Wrote: Try it my way for a couple of attempts on both the taunting/threat abilities, as well as the non tank swap and watch how this encounter becomes trivial. We did it this week while carrying 8 trials on 16 man HM. The encounter isn't a "dps race" if you have solid dps. We still had over a minute left on the enrage timer.
Threat after 1 minute isn't a question.. since we tanks have taunts, if the dps grabs aggro later on the fight, the //10 or - my mistake, ignore// 30% threat boost we gain when we taunt back is so significant that the dps shouldn't catch us from then on.
This is also why pre-emptive taunting to secure aggro is a good thing.. but only when you have some actual threat base numbers to boost 10%.
I have no intention of trying out your "start with low threat" as it, quite frankly, is really counter-intuitive and goes against how the devs have described threat as working.
(05-05-2012 06:35 AM)Genshen Wrote: Because I am not convinced taunt works the way people think it does. I could be wrong, but either way, our dps is pushing top numbers and they don't pull off me.
Well, it's my opinion that your dps aren't pulling top numbers right from the start.. or they're not pulling top numbers at all if you as a tank can get away with your "low threat moves first, then taunt, then high threat moves"..
I'm not claiming to have invented the wheel nor rockets, but I find it hard to see how an assasin tank could do things alot differently than I do for the first 12-13s and it's only after I've started using power adrenals just after pull that the dps'ers in my guild aren't pulling threat off me on tanks 8m hard mode at the beginning.
And if you aren't convinced that taunt works the way the rest of us think it works, please enlighten us as I think everyone would be most interested in knowing this.
Just for reference, my first 12-13s of the fight is : Power Adrenal/Shock (1.5s), Wither(3.0s), Discharge(4.5s), Saber Strike(6.0s), Shock(7.5s), Recklessnes/Force Lightning(10.5s), Wither(12s), Saber Strike(13.5s), Shock(15s), Mass Mindcontrol.
Yes I should use more Thrash'es, but the force cost is too big as filler in this really critically tight rotation where I need to generate the most threat in the least time without relying on Energize procs.
TL;DR - Genshen's keeping aggro coz the dps'ers are playing nice at the start.
RE: Threat conversation - Sith_Happens - 05-06-2012 05:04 PM
(05-06-2012 07:00 AM)Ashardis Wrote: TL;DR - Genshen's keeping aggro coz the dps'ers are playing nice at the start.
I feel it should be noted that there's nothing inherently wrong with having "the DPS play nice at the start" (and I'm assuming that Ashardis didn't mean to imply otherwise with the above); in fact, it's probably a good thing to do in general, especially if the tank is building as much threat as possible in the meantime.
RE: Threat conversation - Dack - 05-06-2012 07:57 PM
(05-06-2012 05:04 PM)Sith_Happens Wrote:(05-06-2012 07:00 AM)Ashardis Wrote: TL;DR - Genshen's keeping aggro coz the dps'ers are playing nice at the start.
I feel it should be noted that there's nothing inherently wrong with having "the DPS play nice at the start" (and I'm assuming that Ashardis didn't mean to imply otherwise with the above); in fact, it's probably a good thing to do in general, especially if the tank is building as much threat as possible in the meantime.
The thing is, you want your DPS to be playing dirty and heavy at EVERY single second of the fight possible. If we can figure out these threat mechanics and have a full mastery over them at all times then that translate to an extra few seconds of heavy DPS at the beginning of the fight and after each threat drop mechanic or tank swap.
This could easily be the difference between a hard enrage at 10% or no enrage at all.
RE: Threat conversation - BigRedJedi - 05-06-2012 08:19 PM
(05-06-2012 03:34 AM)Genshen Wrote: Because I am not convinced taunt works the way people think it does. I could be wrong, but either way, our dps is pushing top numbers and they don't pull off me.
Reasonably certain that Rystet's very detailed testing indicates that Taunts work exactly the way we think they do.
In fact, they must work the way that we think they do, else your own strategy would not work, as without the current Taunt mechanics, no tank would be able to keep up with fully-geared DPS, regardless of 'when' they use their high-threat abilities; there are simply too few of those high-threat abilities which, combined with the relatively low 50% threat modifier, would put tanks far behind the aggro management curve and DPS would always pull aggro once the fixate from Taunts wore off.
While the BW solution is hardly elegant, it is, for the time being, an effective means of allowing tanks to perform their function.
-BRJ
RE: Threat conversation - Ashardis - 05-07-2012 12:14 AM
(05-06-2012 05:04 PM)Sith_Happens Wrote:(05-06-2012 07:00 AM)Ashardis Wrote: TL;DR - Genshen's keeping aggro coz the dps'ers are playing nice at the start.
I feel it should be noted that there's nothing inherently wrong with having "the DPS play nice at the start" (and I'm assuming that Ashardis didn't mean to imply otherwise with the above); in fact, it's probably a good thing to do in general, especially if the tank is building as much threat as possible in the meantime.
That was my point - nothing wrong with having the dps'ers hold back or hang back for a few seconds at the start if it means there's no aggro issues.
What I did balk against was the other misconceptions about taunting and THEN using high threat abilities.
I would also like to correct my mistakes in earlier replies - There seems to be NO backing for my assumptions that taunting while in melee range while you have the aggro only gives you +10% aggro boost - it does seem to be +30% no matter if you're at range or not.
This ofc invalidates my main argument for tankswapping on Tank Bosses, so sorry for that misleading.
RE: Threat conversation - Genshen - 05-07-2012 11:20 AM
I stand corrected and gladly admit it. For some reason, I had the notion that for the duration of taunt it adds a 10%-30% threat to the abilities you use for that 6 secs you taunted. Don't ask me where I got that from, I was drinking.
Thanks for setting me straight.
RE: Threat conversation - GeeDee - 05-08-2012 01:21 PM
(05-02-2012 05:37 PM)Sturrm Wrote:(05-02-2012 12:05 PM)GeeDee Wrote: Great info guys. I found my way here doing a search on Juggs Threat .
I'm having the same issues on the 2nd fight in EC HM with Threat.
I play a Sith Juggs (Full Immortal atm)
Full Rakata (with 5 augments belt/bracers/pants/saber/1 implant)
I almost always start on the right side, with a marauder and a sniper. I guard the Marauder however by the time DD hits I'll often lose aggro right after to the marauder which causes the 2 people who took the DD to instantly die, obviously making a taunt after that rather useless. I fear using my regular taunt a head of time because the tank swap comes almost right after DDs. Most know that's not that far into the fight. To counter this from happening they are having to slow their damage until after the tank swap happens.
After doing a search on this I'm getting the feeling I'm not the only one who's having this problem. Does anyone have any tips that could help me from losing aggro before that first tank swap? Someone else mentioned it here but with such a tight enrage timer in that 2nd fight every little bit of dps counts.
My typical rotation is as follows:
Saber Throw > Force Charge > Smash > Force Scream >Sundering Armor > Crushing Blow > Backhand > Ravage
followed by Retaliation or Vicious Slash and once cooldowns pop for the above mentioned I try to fit them back into the rotation .
I've posted this on other forums with people suggesting that I move FS and Smashing to the end of the rotation (which makes a lot of sense since at the beginning of the fight I'm really not taking much damage to begin with . I have roughly 24k hp in raids atm). What are people using for rotations?
And are people using more hybrid specs to build on threat or are most remaining in the cookie cutter Immortal spec?
Thanks for any advice I get
-GD
I play full immortal and If you are having trouble opening that fight, I recommend you go into the fight using a Strength Stim, and to pop a Power adrenal before you start your first rotation. If you feel that you might be getting behind, use your aoe taunt (dont touch your single target taunt, since like you mentioned, you need it for the swap).
Just a heads up for anyone that's wondering. This worked great for me. I just popped a Power Adrenal like you suggested, and used the +405 Power relic and I didn't have any more aggro issues. It was a big help, Thanks for the tip.
-GD
RE: Threat conversation - Olos - 05-11-2012 06:29 AM
If you're going to go the relic route, a crit/surge relic actually works very nicely as a tank, as it will be mostly unaffected by DR. Puts your surge above 70% and gives a decent boost to crit.
RE: Threat conversation - Kaedis - 05-11-2012 11:52 AM
Quote:I would also like to correct my mistakes in earlier replies - There seems to be NO backing for my assumptions that taunting while in melee range while you have the aggro only gives you +10% aggro boost - it does seem to be +30% no matter if you're at range or not.
There does exist a range in which you only gain 10% threat. In fact, the game files explicitly annotated it. However, this "melee" range is very small for most targets, well within their target circle ground projection. This range can generally be ignored, unless you're standing inside the mob for some reason.
RE: Threat conversation - SLi - 05-15-2012 06:12 PM
(05-11-2012 11:52 AM)Kaedis Wrote: There does exist a range in which you only gain 10% threat. In fact, the game files explicitly annotated it. However, this "melee" range is very small for most targets, well within their target circle ground projection. This range can generally be ignored, unless you're standing inside the mob for some reason.
From reasonably extensive testing on the Operations Training Dummy I found the threshold for Taunt changing from 110% to 130% threat increase was 2.75 meters.
2.74 meters 110% threat from taunt
![[Image: 110threat.png]](http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/535/110threat.png)
2.75 meters 130% threat from taunt
![[Image: 130threat.png]](http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9718/130threat.png)
The melee hit box on the Operations Training Dummy is 4.0 meters. That is, the maximum range at which you can use moves such as Rocket Punch or Assault.
I tested for a couple of hours to find the threshold then to confirm I retested at:
Powertech:
2.74 meters 110% threat increase from taunt - Torpase log
2.75 meters 130%* threat increase from taunt - Torparse log
2.76 meters 130% threat increase from taunt - Torparse log
Juggernaut:
2.74 meters 110% threat increase from taunt - Torparse log
2.75 meters 110%* threat increase from taunt - Torparse log
2.76 meters 130% threat increase from taunt - Torparse log
Every taunt closer than 2.74 meters would give a 110% threat increase.
Every taunt further than 2.76 meters would give a 130% threat increase.
* Note: There was a slight discrepancy between the two tests. At 2.75 meters my Powertech showed a 130% threat increase but my Juggernaut showed only a 110% threat increase. I assume this was due to slight rounding of the distance as it showed on my Target Frame.
I have added the Torparse logs from my preliminary testing, however I was still refining the testing process across the logs.
Update: AoE Taunt Testing
Powertech: Torparse log
2.74 meters 110% threat increase from AoE taunt (9:53:07 - 9:57:36 in above Torparse log)
2.75 meters 110% threat increase from AoE taunt (9:58:03 - 10:04:23 in above Torparse log)
2.76 meters 130% threat increase from AoE taunt (10:04:55 - 10:09:17 in above Torparse log)
From additional testing on the Operations Combat Dummy, it would appear to confirm the 2.75 meter threshold, as well as that the AoE taunt functions in the same way as the single target taunt.
If someone could repeat the tests and either confirm or disprove the threshold, I would appreciate it.
If anyone has any tips in a better way to test this theory, or spots any errors in my testing, please let me know and I'll retest.
I guess the question is, is this 2.75 meter threshold a constant game mechanic or does it scale/change in some way. Possibly, based on the size of the bosses hit box or maybe even as a unique range for each boss.
Methodology of Testing:
Before each run I would start a new combat log by disabling and re-enabling it in the Preferences Menu.
I would set my range to 2.74/2.75/2.76 meters as it was shown on my target indicator.
I would note the distance and start time on a notepad to cross reference with the log files.
I would upload and analyse the logs using the threat graphs from Torparse.
The threat percentage increase was calculated by taking the top threat value of the taunt "spike" and dividing it by the lower number of the taunt spike.
At each taunt mark there seemed to be a distinct, standard linear increase of either 110% or 130%.
Threat Testing Rotation - Powertech:
1: Build threat with Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, Explosive Dart and Rapid Shots for 10-20seconds
2: Rapid Shots would trigger my Ion Cell which would leave a DoT on the training dummy (Shocked)
3: I would stop DPS while the DoT ticked away and wait until it fell off the target (approximately 0.5 to 1.0 seconds after the last tick had expired)
4: Taunt
5: Wait 3 seconds into the taunt then start DPS using only Rapid Shots until the DoT was re-applied and taunt had less than 5 seconds of cooldown left
6: Repeat steps 3 - 5 for a minimum of 5 taunt cycles
Threat Testing Rotation - Juggernaut:
1: Build threat with Assault, Force Scream, Force Choke, Ravage, Vicious Slash for 10-20seconds
2: I am Hybrid Spec so I would Force Scream leaving a DoT on the training dummy (Bleeding)
3: I would stop DPS while the DoT ticked away and wait until after it fell off the target (approximately 0.5 to 1.0 seconds after the last tick had expired)
4: Taunt
5: Wait 3 seconds into the taunt then start DPS using only Assault until I was at full rage and taunt had less than 5 seconds of cooldown left, at which point I would Force Scream to reapply the DoT
6: Repeat steps 3 - 5 for a minimum of 5 taunt cycles
An interesting side note: My gun took durability damage from purely DPSing the Training Dummy. I started at 200/200 and finished at 11/200 durability.
- Updated to include preliminary testing Torparse results
- Updated to include AoE Powertech taunt testing (17/05/12)