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Threat, wtf is going on... - Stab - 02-02-2012 12:16 AM
Has anyone else noticed that arsenal mercenary threat generation seems to be broken. Threat dump feels iffy at best. Do we know if there is an additional threat component attached to Tracer Missile or something wonky making the dragons very angry with us?
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - Gorlough - 02-02-2012 12:32 AM
Well, there's a few things:
Actually the balance of healers, tank and DDs seems to be off for most groups/operations.
Either the tanks are undergeared, the healers are not having optimal output (and thus the tanks have to gear more in defense) or the godess of crit/barrage procs is favouring us too much.
1. Undergeared tanks mean less threat generation - we simply outdamage here.
2. Suboptimal healer output means tanks have to stack more defense and can stack less offense -> See 1.
3. Proccing everything puts us over the top damage/threatwise.
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - Stab - 02-02-2012 12:52 AM
I understand that scaling can come into play, but we have well geared tanks running optimal threat rotations. If it's just scaling then I guess we will just have to deal with it. Just throwing out a gripe and curious if others are encountering similar issues.
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - Kindread - 02-02-2012 01:36 AM
I've only been 50 for about a week now, but my gear is pretty decent (considering). I went with the 21/2/18 spec for added threat. The guild I am in also has a Sith Jugg which has geared mainly for defense. He gives me shit all the time about how much more punishment he can take, but at the end of the day the DPSers in my group can go all out 100% of the time without worry. With the exception of some trash pulls, where I let the DPSers burn down their own mobs from time to time, I have yet to have any real aggro issues.
We have a full time DPS merc that does very well for himself. He was level 50 within about 10 days after release and has spent most of his time fine tuning his gear and I still have no real serious aggro issues.
Our healer is pretty top notch also, I primarly use my wife as a healer who is running a Sith Inquisitor. Even she tells me that our guild Jugg takes less heaing, but requires more of those occasional burst heals that keep healers on the edge of their seats. Whereas I just take more overall damage at a steady pace (which is much eaiser to heal)
Back to the OPs question .. I think its your tanks. If you brouse the tanking forums on the official SWTOR website you will see quite a few people swaring by defense over threat, and I cant really argue most of their points, but when I run a HM FP, or Operation and never loose a single mob to bursty DPSers I feel very justified in my decision.
So . . . Get your tanks to focus more on Threat/DPS, which will likely require a respec. Spend some time with them so they can learn their new rotations (gogo Incendiary Missiles!!) and your threat issues should start to dissapear.
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - Arch - 02-02-2012 01:52 AM
I mainly run with the same group for HMs, so it is not a gear thing or picking up fresh 50 PUG tanks. In my case, it seems Jugg tank threat generation is a bit low and the Arsenal Merc threat is a bit high. I have yet to do any HMs with a similarly geared Assassin or Powertech tank, so ymmv depending on the class of the tank.
I know I pretty much require Guard up on me the majority of the time in our HMs otherwise mobs end up all over the place.
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - Coriolis - 02-02-2012 01:58 AM
Your tanks simply need to play better. Right now it seems like juggs are the worst on threat (and probably the best on mitigation, at least when it comes to cooldowns), so if your tank is a jugg he's going to have issues. And mercs tend to be the best dps, although that is hard to measure.
I play a jugg as my guild's MT and the way a pull usually works (against tank and spank bosses with full damage from the start) is that I'll start by using all my rage cooldowns and high threat/high CD abilities (backhand/enrage/choke), and hold aggro for probably the first 10-15 secs or so. At which point our merc will take it, and I'll immediately taunt back. Then usually the merc will take it again just a little later - my taunt is usually still on C/D so I'll aoe taunt. After that he may take it a 3rd time 20-30 sec after the aoe taunt at which point my normal taunt is back up.
From that point on, it's very rare for anyone to pull aggro until the boss is dead. I believe the reason is that to take aggro from range you need to have 130% of the tank's threat, but when a tank taunts he gets all of your threat. So once you're a minute+ into the fight, everyone has enough threat that when a tank taunts he gets enough of a buffer that it's very hard to loose threat.
If your tank is having issues despite doing all that, and he's geared similarly to you (i.e. his mainhand weapon isn't some low lvl junk) you might have him look for a +str stim as opposed to a +endurance one, since you gain plenty of endurance from tank gear already, and the game doesn't feature THAT much burst damage at this point.
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - Mesrith - 02-02-2012 02:13 AM
(02-02-2012 01:58 AM)Coriolis Wrote: Your tanks simply need to play better. Right now it seems like juggs are the worst on threat (and probably the best on mitigation, at least when it comes to cooldowns), so if your tank is a jugg he's going to have issues. And mercs tend to be the best dps, although that is hard to measure.
I play a jugg as my guild's MT and the way a pull usually works (against tank and spank bosses with full damage from the start) is that I'll start by using all my rage cooldowns and high threat/high CD abilities (backhand/enrage/choke), and hold aggro for probably the first 10-15 secs or so. At which point our merc will take it, and I'll immediately taunt back. Then usually the merc will take it again just a little later - my taunt is usually still on C/D so I'll aoe taunt. After that he may take it a 3rd time 20-30 sec after the aoe taunt at which point my normal taunt is back up.
From that point on, it's very rare for anyone to pull aggro until the boss is dead. I believe the reason is that to take aggro from range you need to have 130% of the tank's threat, but when a tank taunts he gets all of your threat. So once you're a minute+ into the fight, everyone has enough threat that when a tank taunts he gets enough of a buffer that it's very hard to loose threat.
If your tank is having issues despite doing all that, and he's geared similarly to you (i.e. his mainhand weapon isn't some low lvl junk) you might have him look for a +str stim as opposed to a +endurance one, since you gain plenty of endurance from tank gear already, and the game doesn't feature THAT much burst damage at this point.
I just think most tanks would agree that you shouldn't have to bend over backwards to pull it off, and that Bioware needs to make some adjustments to threat and scaling in the near future. While I don't mind switching defensive stats for threat ones in the current tier, what happens if they realize that tank damage was a bit light in this tier, and they swing the pendulum the other way in 1.2 Ops content?
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - frmorrison - 02-02-2012 02:37 AM
I know threat can be an issue but if you have a Sorcerer, their Force Pull on allies ability will reduce threat by 25%.
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - Kindread - 02-02-2012 02:47 AM
(02-02-2012 01:58 AM)Coriolis Wrote: Your tanks simply need to play better. Right now it seems like juggs are the worst on threat (and probably the best on mitigation, at least when it comes to cooldowns), so if your tank is a jugg he's going to have issues. And mercs tend to be the best dps, although that is hard to measure.
I play a jugg as my guild's MT and the way a pull usually works (against tank and spank bosses with full damage from the start) is that I'll start by using all my rage cooldowns and high threat/high CD abilities (backhand/enrage/choke), and hold aggro for probably the first 10-15 secs or so. At which point our merc will take it, and I'll immediately taunt back. Then usually the merc will take it again just a little later - my taunt is usually still on C/D so I'll aoe taunt. After that he may take it a 3rd time 20-30 sec after the aoe taunt at which point my normal taunt is back up.
From that point on, it's very rare for anyone to pull aggro until the boss is dead. I believe the reason is that to take aggro from range you need to have 130% of the tank's threat, but when a tank taunts he gets all of your threat. So once you're a minute+ into the fight, everyone has enough threat that when a tank taunts he gets enough of a buffer that it's very hard to loose threat.
If your tank is having issues despite doing all that, and he's geared similarly to you (i.e. his mainhand weapon isn't some low lvl junk) you might have him look for a +str stim as opposed to a +endurance one, since you gain plenty of endurance from tank gear already, and the game doesn't feature THAT much burst damage at this point.
Well posted!
I have 2 concerns tho ...
I believe it requires 110% of threat to pull off the tank at ranged, and 100% at melee.
Also when you taunt you do not "steal" the other persons threat, you only match who ever is on the top of the treat list. These taunts also add a 6 second permenant aggro onto you, so its best to follow up a taunt with some burst damage to solidify your threat.
RE: Threat, wtf is going on... - swag - 02-02-2012 02:48 AM
I run 8man hardmodes soon nightmares. As a powertech tank i had/have some issues with thread during trash. It's kind of a free for all but popping explosive fuel with a surge adrenal is fucking amazing. If you're not biochem, go buy a bunch of surge adrenals. Armor adrenals aren't really that good and don't even work against some situations (soa lol). The extra threat you get from 565 surge is insane. big numbers are cool.
On single target, my merc and sniper are the only threats to pull from me, and definitely the merc over the sniper (the sniper only pulls if i'm slacking or he crits for 12k or something stupid). I wind up guarding the merc and and keep threat with effort. Coriolis' post feels very familiar; I have to taunt twice within the first minute of most fights but then they stick to me.