+- SWTOR Mechanics Forums (http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums)
+-- Forum: Class Discussion (/forum-7.html)
+--- Forum: Bounty Hunter and Trooper (/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: [Archive] Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium (/thread-663.html)
[Archive] Arsenal Mercenary | Gunnery Commando DPS Compendium - SlimX - 10-25-2011 01:04 PM
The tooltip for Tracer Missile says it only stacks to 5, so 15% will the maximum bonus damage for Heatseeker.
No mention of Rail Shot in the rotation? Tracer Missile will keep the target constantly vulnerable to it, so it could be used on cooldown.
I don't know all the damage values off the top of my head, but when I played Powertech, I know Rapid Shots was one of my lowest damage attacks. Even with the 15% damage boost, I doubt it's worth hitting it 4 times in a row every time you fire off a Tracer. Unless you're already at high heat, you're likely to hit 0 heat before 4 Rapid Shots finish. You could probably fit in something else with a heat cost for better damage, such as the aforementioned Rail Shot, or even another Tracer to increase the Heat Signature stack (if it isn't already at 5) and a chance to proc Barrage.
Heatseeker Missiles appears to do enough damage to be worth firing even before you have maxed out the Heat Signature stack at 5, but as usual, it's difficult to tell from the scaling on the recorded talent tooltips.
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - GWARRR - 10-25-2011 02:15 PM
(10-25-2011 01:04 PM)SlimX Wrote: The tooltip for Tracer Missile says it only stacks to 5, so 15% will the maximum bonus damage for Heatseeker.
No mention of Rail Shot in the rotation? Tracer Missile will keep the target constantly vulnerable to it, so it could be used on cooldown.
All new information to me, so thanks for providing it. Basically it implies that you go through Tracer Missile 3x (hitting 5x at the 3rd instance) before hitting with the Heatseeker (at the most). And that you can definitely fit Rail Shot in, I was not aware that tracers allow for Rail Shot to be used. They probably realized Rail Shot was really underpowered when you could only use it once in a blue moon, which is good.
Rapid Shots probably becomes one of those things where if you need to not keep generating heat, then, if it's damage is so low; you use it during its DPS proc from Tracer Missile to keep your heat down, as many times as needed (which seems to be once to twice at the most per cycle). For instance, on your n-th iteration of your rotation, you may start going to Rapid Shots after a Tracer Missile until you have your heat at a more manageable level, which afterwards allows you to ramp up into Heatseeker without wasting time using Rapid Shots after every Tracer Missile. I also didn't think heat dissipated that fast, which definitely makes it easier to manage your rotation.
So a rotation could be:
1. Riddle
2. Tracer Missile >>> Rapid Shots (if you need some heat dissipation)
3. Rail Shot (Power Shot if on repeats, Rail Shot is still on CD)
4. Power Shot (Tracer Missile if you just used Power Shot as a Rail Shot fill-in)
5. Did Tracer Missile or Power Shot reset the Riddle CD? If so, repeat 1-5.
6. Did Riddle's CD not reset? If not, repeat 2-5.
7. Once you hit 4-5x stacks of tracers, use Heatseeker Missiles
8. Repeat.
You can use Riddle whenever Tracer Missile or Power Shot resets its cooldown, too (i.e. right after 2., 4.), but I feel like rushing Heatseeker is a better DPS choice (you could still land a Riddle right before Heatseeker, then going into your Tracer Missile/Rail Shot/Power Shot bit too if need be). The CD reset just allows it to show up more than once every 15s in your rotation. Especially as doesn't take 15s to get from steps 2 to 5. Rail Shot is instant, Power Shot is 2s activation, Tracer Missile is 1.5s, so you're going through it rather quickly.
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - Bloodskila - 11-13-2011 01:29 AM
Of course now with the new build, we have to revisit our initial thoughts.
Going over some of the things in the new build, I'd say stacking Grav Round/Tracer Missile debuffs as highest priority before laying down our instants. You need to do so anyway, in order to use abilities like High Impact Bolt/Rail Shot.
Some theoretical ability priorities (Hammer Shot/Rapid Shots may be used in between each ability depending on the situation, so since they are so situational, I'm only modelling the resource costing abilities in my rotations) could include:
1) Grav Round/Tracer x 3
2) Demo Round/Heatseekers
3) High Impact Bolt/Rail Shot
4) Full Auto/Unload (becomes priority over 2) and 3) if these abilities are on CD; i.e: Grav/Tracer resets the CD).
5) Grav/Tracer (to reset stacks, becomes top priority when time left on Grav/Tracer debuffs is ~2 seconds).
Though I'm thinking since Demo/Heatseekers did more damage than Grav/Tracer passively (at least it did in the last build), it might be worth bumping that up to top priority initially. Then once you've built up the damage from Grav/Tracer and got full stacks, it'll snowball from there.
So it'll look like this:
1) Demo/Heatseekers
2) Grav Round/Tracer x3
3) High Impact Bolt/Rail Shot
4) Full Auto/Unload (becomes priority over 1) and 3) if those abilities are on CD; i.e: Grav/Tracer resets the CD).
5) Grav/Tracer to reset stacks when stack duration is ~2 seconds.
The above would most likely be used, if the modelling assumptions that Demo's/Heatseeker's damage is greater than Grav/Tracer like the old build.
It is critical however in a PvP scenario for you to get Grav Round/Tracer stacked as fast as possible on a single target. The pressure that it provides is paramount for you to get your pressure on a target, as it reduces armour, allows use of HIB/Rail, buffs HIB's/Rail's and Demo's/Heatseeker's damage. Once you've taken the time to stand still, you can lead your opponent with (hopefully) high damage, instant cast abilities.
I'll need to do some number crunching over the ammo cost and regen rate in order to know when to place those Hammer/Rapid Shots in, though. Also we should find out when to incorporate our major CDs (Reserve Powercell, Reload, Tech Override) in PvE and PvP. Could make our rotations easier to execute and open up opportunities for burst sections rather than sustained.
Anyway guys, discuss.
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - Yeeshak - 11-15-2011 07:21 PM
TORGuild calculator have been update, the link don't work anymore
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - GWARRR - 11-17-2011 10:06 AM
The post been fixed now with the new build. With regards to a rotation, Bloodskilla's will likely work pretty well. Basically:
1. Heatseeker Missiles (if Heatseeker Missiles damage is better than Tracer, if not then stick it in before Rail Shot)
2. Tracer Missile (2x Tracers)
3. Tracer Missile (4x Tracers)
4. Rail Shot
5. Unload
6. Tracer Missile (refresh, hit 5x Tracers)
For some reason, to me it seems more efficient to stay at 4x, go through the rest of the rotation before refreshing Tracer for that last stack (by necessity to make sure the debuff sticks).
Basically, if Rail Shot and/or Heatseeker Missiles are on cooldown, you fill it in with Power Shot or Tracer Missile, refreshing Tracer stacks and/or try to get a reset CD on Unload. Or you fill in with Rapid Shots if you need to manage your heat output. Then you just rinse and repeat, tossing in what whatever active cooldowns you need if you're in a pinch (i.e. need the activation time of your next ability removed, need the heat cost of your next ability removed, etc.).
I think the uses of active cooldowns will be largely based on boss mechanics more than anything else, and we have no knowledge of those yet. For example, you may want to save your "lower the activation time" active for when the boss does a self-heal in Phase 2, so you can push through the heal with DPS. You don't want to burn that in Phase 1 because if you don't save it, you may have a lot of trouble handling Phase 2. Though I'm not sure about PvP, because it seems like a lot of fights just don't take very long, so you use them mostly whenever. You may as well burn them when you're closing in on a kill, especially prioritizing their usage on Sorcs/Sages, Operatives/Scoundrels, and other Mercs/Commandos, in approximately that order (by armor rating, heh).
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - Bloodskila - 11-19-2011 07:17 AM
I pressed a beta tester, and got an answer to some questions. Charged Bolts/Power Shot does more damage than Grav Round/Tracer as you level up, so once you have full stacks of Grav/Tracer then you will get more DPS with Charged/Power Shots, assuming you can keep up the debuff stacks.
I've found an excellent resource to use here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=jZQerOSv7pw&annotation_id=annotation_655748&feature=iv&v=_b7LesO6DLo
Good job to faction60 for getting this footage.
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - Xyrm - 11-20-2011 08:56 AM
(11-19-2011 07:17 AM)Bloodskila Wrote: I pressed a beta tester, and got an answer to some questions. Charged Bolts/Power Shot does more damage than Grav Round/Tracer as you level up, so once you have full stacks of Grav/Tracer then you will get more DPS with Charged/Power Shots, assuming you can keep up the debuff stacks.
I'd like to point out that ultimately the damage per ability isn't our concern for PvE, but rather damage per heat. This is because we aren't GCD capped, but rather heat capped. Furthermore, this means that the TRUE seperation between an average and fantastic mercenary (or any heat user, for that matter) is how well they can balance keeping heat draining while staying as close as possible to empty.
Ultimately, what we are going to have to determine is what makes the most heat efficient build. This means that we also have to factor in two things, aside from apples to apples compare of power shot and tracer missile:
1) Tracer Lock - does the efficiency gain to rail shot tip the scales back towards Tracer Missile's favor? Keep in mind "Updgraded Arsenal" makes rail shot INCREDIBLY efficient (from what I've seen, it hits at least as hard as tracer missile with full stacks).
2) Terminal Velocity - note that the tooltip says "missiles and unload"... NOT power shot. This seems like a massive gain towards tracer missile... each crit (of which will have a solid amount at level 50) will refund half the cost.
Taking in the above two, my guess is that we will never have a need outside of PvP or short-lived trash mobs to ever use power shot once we get tracer missile and a few key talents... UNLESS power shot hits SUBSTANTIALLY harder than tracer missile (I'm thinking it would have to hit a good 30%+ harder). Given the power behind Terminal Velocity, I'd even venture a guess to say crit (both through AIM and as a direct stat) will end up being our most heavily valued stat once we get deeper into endgame and start having some powerful theorycrafting tools at our disposal.
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - GWARRR - 11-20-2011 10:37 AM
(11-19-2011 07:17 AM)Bloodskila Wrote:
I've found an excellent resource to use here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=jZQerOSv7pw&annotation_id=annotation_655748&feature=iv&v=_b7LesO6DLo
Good job to faction60 for getting this footage.
Thanks for the video. He doesn't use Power Shot at all in that video...just uses extra Tracer Missiles instead. Doesn't seem to be aware that Power Shot deals oodles more damage than Tracer Missile (though, this depends, see below math), and forgets to use Heatseeker and Rail Shot when they come off of CD. I know he was trying to maintain his gap but all he needs is a Rocket Punch + kite or a Jet Boost, which are the easiest ways to maintain gaps. He just kinda runs around and uses Rapid Shots a lot when he doesn't need to. I do notice there's a little indicator in the UI telling you where in the Heat regen breakpoints you are, which is a really nice touch. But it at least gives us an idea as to how Mercenary gameplay is.
(11-20-2011 08:56 AM)Xyrm Wrote: I'd like to point out that ultimately the damage per ability isn't our concern for PvE, but rather damage per heat. This is because we aren't GCD capped, but rather heat capped. Furthermore, this means that the TRUE seperation between an average and fantastic mercenary (or any heat user, for that matter) is how well they can balance keeping heat draining while staying as close as possible to empty.
Ultimately, what we are going to have to determine is what makes the most heat efficient build. This means that we also have to factor in two things, aside from apples to apples compare of power shot and tracer missile:
1) Tracer Lock - does the efficiency gain to rail shot tip the scales back towards Tracer Missile's favor? Keep in mind "Updgraded Arsenal" makes rail shot INCREDIBLY efficient (from what I've seen, it hits at least as hard as tracer missile with full stacks).
2) Terminal Velocity - note that the tooltip says "missiles and unload"... NOT power shot. This seems like a massive gain towards tracer missile... each crit (of which will have a solid amount at level 50) will refund half the cost.
Taking in the above two, my guess is that we will never have a need outside of PvP or short-lived trash mobs to ever use power shot once we get tracer missile and a few key talents... UNLESS power shot hits SUBSTANTIALLY harder than tracer missile (I'm thinking it would have to hit a good 30%+ harder). Given the power behind Terminal Velocity, I'd even venture a guess to say crit (both through AIM and as a direct stat) will end up being our most heavily valued stat once we get deeper into endgame and start having some powerful theorycrafting tools at our disposal.
Gonna run through some basic calculations:
Power Shot:
Rank 7: Level 50, Training Cost: 21.250, 1: [818 - 1161]
Average: 989.5
Tracer Missile:
Level 50: 1: [528 - 624]
Average: 576
From the updated Stat Spam. While it's supposedly "only an approximation," 70% more damage, which is pretty significant. Power Shot costs 16 Heat with the appropriate skilling, Tracer Missile costs 7 Heat with the proper skilling. So, damage per heat (DPHt from here on out):
Power Shot: 659.67 (not including GCD)
Tracer Missile: 384 DPS (not including GCD)
Power Shot: 61.84 DPHt
Tracer Missile: 82.29DPHt
As expected, Power Shot has nearly 2x the DPS that Tracer Missile has. But it turns out that Tracer Missile gives better damage per heat, but obviously lacks in DPS. Since they both have similar activation times, then by DPHtPS (damage per heat per second), then Tracer Missile has the best efficiency, and it's a statistically significant result. An interesting find. That is assuming the heat cost information is correct: I assumed base HC of Power Shot is 25 (in an old build it was 16, but that would make Supercharged Gas change Power Shot's cost to -1, so I the only logical cost is 25), and that Tracer Missile's HC is 16 (which was also an old XML data find). The video seems to support Tracer Missile's cost of being 16 Heat. Power Shot we have no confirmation of though.
I will admit, it seems a bit odd that Power Shot would get so many buffs/synergies in the Arsenal tree to only be rendered useless in efficiency by Tracer Missile. Then again, I would totally be not surprised if Bioware didn't think it totally through. (I will see what I can dig up)
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - Xyrm - 11-20-2011 11:05 AM
(11-20-2011 10:37 AM)Darth GWARRR Wrote: I will admit, it seems a bit odd that Power Shot would get so many buffs/synergies in the Arsenal tree to only be rendered useless in efficiency by Tracer Missile. Then again, I would totally be not surprised if Bioware didn't think it totally through. (I will see what I can dig up)
And if I'm reading these calculations correctly, that's still not including the benefit from Tracer Lock. Given the difference in raw DPS however, is it unreasonable to think we still have Power Shot for PvP or short-lived opponents (such as trash mobs)? And is it really that bad to have the shots be mutually exclusive? Our "rotation" as it stands already requires us to manage heat while watching 2 different stacks and a proc, if you add too much more into the mix you are just going to make it frustrating to play.
I do have a question about the skill stats we see in the spam...the numbers we are seeing I assume are base values, perhaps modified by level. However, how do weapons factor into these numbers? The answer right now probably is "we don't know", but it is important to keep in mind that ability scaling has the potential to make a huge difference.
Finally, a question about accuracy. I remember hearing that any accuracy over 100% was converted to armor penetration (Source, second post down); if armor's damage reduction is calculated on a curve, and we already have 20% penetration from heat signature (or any other sunder effect; a few classes have them) plus another 35% from high velocity canister (another question to answer: stacking additive or multiplicative?), then accuracy will likely prove very potent. In which case, I suggest the 7/31/3 build posted at the top be considered for revision, pending a deeper analysis (as 2 points are removed from the accuracy talent "Advanced Targeting" to get increased alacrity via "Critical Reaction). There's so much we need to know, if only we were provided with a combat log of some kind...
RE: Mercenary | Commando: Arsenal | Gunnery DPS Discussion - GWARRR - 11-20-2011 01:34 PM
(11-20-2011 11:05 AM)Xyrm Wrote: And if I'm reading these calculations correctly, that's still not including the benefit from Tracer Lock. Given the difference in raw DPS however, is it unreasonable to think we still have Power Shot for PvP or short-lived opponents (such as trash mobs)? And is it really that bad to have the shots be mutually exclusive? Our "rotation" as it stands already requires us to manage heat while watching 2 different stacks and a proc, if you add too much more into the mix you are just going to make it frustrating to play.
Well, no. Of course, the numbers don't tell everything. But they look pretty and they distract from the intuition, which is what happened to me. My bad there. Power Shot's raw DPS can't really be ignored. I don't think with its heat cost it's necessary spam-worthy, but as far as rotation fillers go it's going to be better than Tracer Missile when you're in that "random" space between Rail Shots and you've already maxed Tracer Lock stacks. I've been forgetting about Tracer Lock, I think that changes our rotation quite a bit.
Quote:I do have a question about the skill stats we see in the spam...the numbers we are seeing I assume are base values, perhaps modified by level. However, how do weapons factor into these numbers? The answer right now probably is "we don't know", but it is important to keep in mind that ability scaling has the potential to make a huge difference.
I looked through the old XML, they have almost identical coefficients (1.73 Power Shot to 1.75 Tracer Missile), so the numbers shouldn't deviate significantly from what's already listed. But if they went in and modified those...I wouldn't be able to tell you since I don't have those new numbers.
Quote:Finally, a question about accuracy. I remember hearing that any accuracy over 100% was converted to armor penetration (Source, second post down); if armor's damage reduction is calculated on a curve, and we already have 20% penetration from heat signature (or any other sunder effect; a few classes have them) plus another 35% from high velocity canister (another question to answer: stacking additive or multiplicative?), then accuracy will likely prove very potent. In which case, I suggest the 7/31/3 build posted at the top be considered for revision, pending a deeper analysis (as 2 points are removed from the accuracy talent "Advanced Targeting" to get increased alacrity via "Critical Reaction). There's so much we need to know, if only we were provided with a combat log of some kind...
I'm not too sure, but from my perspective, we have enough armor penetration that stacking Accuracy past a prime hit rate may be inefficient. It will depend on the returns of extra accuracy vs. ArPen given for the extra accuracy. For classes that don't have enough natural/skill ArPen, I think it's pretty critical since you have no other ways of shoving off armor. But we have quite a bit already, and assuming someone in your operation group has a Sunder effect, it's going to be even more. Also, I think we spend so much time channeling and activating that I think Alacrity is comparatively important: the faster you activate/channel, the better your DPS is. But, that will require a lot of data to check accuracy vs. alacrity and its overall effect on DPS. We won't know, as you said, until a combat log comes out after launch (if one comes out, sigh...
). It will be something to monitor closely.edit: first post updated with a better rotation.