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RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - LB_StorM - 11-14-2011 07:27 AM
(11-14-2011 05:34 AM)Nitey Wrote: Since Bioware has said that each dps tree should yield comparable dps, and comparable pvp, I intend to hold on to that idea, and make a Madness Assassin.
Where did they say this? I thought they only stated that each class would have comparable PvE and PvP DPS. To me it seems fairly intuitive that some trees will have to 'more PvP' and others 'more PvE'.
The Republic counterpart of the Madness Assassin was what I originally intended to make, but alas not anymore after I learned it wasn't (or didn't seem to be) the Ops spec.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Wugan - 11-14-2011 07:53 AM
(11-14-2011 07:27 AM)LB_StorM Wrote:(11-14-2011 05:34 AM)Nitey Wrote: Since Bioware has said that each dps tree should yield comparable dps, and comparable pvp, I intend to hold on to that idea, and make a Madness Assassin.
Where did they say this? I thought they only stated that each class would have comparable PvE and PvP DPS. To me it seems fairly intuitive that some trees will have to 'more PvP' and others 'more PvE'.
The Republic counterpart of the Madness Assassin was what I originally intended to make, but alas not anymore after I learned it wasn't (or didn't seem to be) the Ops spec.
This quote by Georg Zeller is probably the clearest thing they have said on the topic. They know we will min/max and find the "best" spec, but their goal is to make them close:
"To answer the question regarding doing PvE and PvP with the same spec.
We develop all skill trees to be competitive and viable in PVP and PvE. We don't want you to feel like you have to respec to participate in different activities.
As it stands, should be able to participate in both PvE and PvP without feeling 'gimped'. Your signature PvE abilities (e.g. Taunt) are viable in PvP as well and all classes feature utility helpful in both scenarios.
By the nature of things, some specs will be more optimal than others for different playstyles.
e.g. Burst DPS certainly helps bringing down healer or tank backed teams in PvP, distributed DoT builds like Balance on the Sage really help in PvP objective denial (can't capture if you have a Dot interrupting you), etc. So, I have no doubts that players will find specs that 'do better' in PvP or PvE for their particular playstyle. To expect otherwise would be foolish."
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Nitey - 11-14-2011 08:04 AM
Well, Georg Zoeller phrased it like this:
Quote:We develop all skill trees to be competitive and viable in PVP and PvE. We don't want you to feel like you have to respec to participate in different activities.
and:
Quote:The design for the game is that if you fully spec into a specific role (dps, tank, healer), you will be comparable in effectiveness to characters of all other classes in the same role. No second class healers, tanks, or dps.
About the Madness tree has been said:
Quote:The ‘Madness’ skill tree, shared between both the Assassin and the Sorcerer, has received considerable upgrades with the goal of creating a range/melee hybrid gameplay option.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Kaedis - 11-14-2011 09:42 AM
They've said the trees will be balanced, but it's also clear from the tree design that the shared tree is a PvP focused tree for each class. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware excluded that tree from the PvE balance promise.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Pantelijus - 11-14-2011 10:25 AM
(11-14-2011 09:42 AM)Kore Wrote: They've said the trees will be balanced, but it's also clear from the tree design that the shared tree is a PvP focused tree for each class. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware excluded that tree from the PvE balance promise.
They added some PvP tools and interesting talents into shared trees so people wont think that shared trees are just there for filler talents or should i say they encourage people to spec into shared trees so they wont be neglected like some talent trees are in WoW (example)
Dps difference between 2 trees arent that drastic so people wont jump on the bandwagon like they did in Wotlk/Cata when it comes to PvE viability.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Lanfear1 - 11-14-2011 10:42 AM
What exactly makes Madness look like a worse pve tree then lightening? The top ability?
I feel like madness have better filler spell (Force Lightening) and better dots, 1 ability that is casted every 9 sek and applied every 11 sek doesn't make me confident enough about Lightening doing more damage.
To me it also looks like Madness has a better force regain. Meaning the ability to actually heal if raid really needs it after a spike without going out of force.
Can somone post their Lightening rotation and tell me that they actually can dps with optimal rotation for 10 minutes without going oof? Madness can, easy.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Sujin - 11-14-2011 01:29 PM
Force efficiency in the Lightning tree has been a concern of mine for a while. Based on the talent trees, it appears that the Lightning tree depends almost entirely on crit for forge regen. From a design/balance perspective, this seems a little problematic. SWTOR has a fixed resource system, so it isn't like we can just stack willpower and increase our force pool, in the same way that a mage can stack intellect.
I am also a little concerned about alacrity, as for a Lightning sorceror, there are not a lot of abilities with activation times greater than the GCD. Last I heard, alacrity did not affect the GCD but just activation/channel times. With FL being channeled and a major component of madness DPS, it would seem that this stat meshes much better with Madness.
Play testing will sort all this out, I am confident of that.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Nitey - 11-14-2011 08:35 PM
(11-14-2011 09:42 AM)Kore Wrote: They've said the trees will be balanced, but it's also clear from the tree design that the shared tree is a PvP focused tree for each class. I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware excluded that tree from the PvE balance promise.
I'm not quite sure how that's so clear, unless I'm missing something. Let's look at some of the abilities in the Assassin trees Deception vs. Madness (I haven't looked at the Sorceror's trees that much).
Madness:
Sith Defiance (damage reduction)
Oppressing Force (more pvp-oriented/crowd control)
Parasitism (regain health)
Torment (force cost reduction)
Fanatacism (force cost reduction)
Haunted Dreams (crowd control)
Corrupted Flesh (damage reduction)
Calculating Mind (regain force)
Devour (regain health)
Deception:
Insulation (increase armor)
Dark Embrace (increased force gain)
Obfuscation (enhanced stealth)
Avoidance (more pvp-oriented/interrupt)
Darkswell (stealth enhancement/increased force gain)
Entropic Field (damage reduction)
Saber Conduit (regain force)
Fade (stealth enhancement)
Static Cling (reduce slow cd = dps, more pvp-oriented)
Now, if we give each possibly dps-related or utility-related skill the benefit of the doubt, it leaves us with the following non-dps/utility skills:
Madness:
Sith Defiance (damage reduction)
Parasitism (regain health)
Corrupted Flesh (damage reduction)
Devour (regain health)
Deception:
Insulation (increase armor)
Obfuscation (enhanced stealth)
Entropic Field (damage reduction)
Fade (stealth enhancement)
Hence I'm not convinced that the Madness tree is not/less pve dps viable, and more pvp-oriented instead. Simulations, calculations and/or combat parses will have to show whether it is lacking in dps or not.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - Pred - 11-14-2011 09:29 PM
Regarding Madness Talent WRATH(T4) - I have no idea which is the hardest hitting spell to use when this procs.
RE: Sith Sorcerer/Jedi Sage DPS Compendium - LB_StorM - 11-14-2011 10:31 PM
To interrupt the Madness vs. Lightning discussion for a bit, there were interesting changes this build. Now for a Lightning Sorc, even if we go 21 sec Affliction, there's still an extra skill point with nowhere to put (2 if you count the one that goes to +5 m range).
Not sure what's the best thing to do with it... stronger Static Barrier, lower Whirlwind/Jolt cooldown, or Overload AoE CC.
I believe the extra two skill points came from Lightning Storm becoming a 1-point skill.